5-on-5: All Star Break

[logpmess]

Welcome back to our second itteration of 5-on-5 for the season. We are at the halfway point in the season. Teams are in three different categories: playoff bound, lottery bound, or on the fringe. This is the point in the season where team activity is dropping and we are waiting for that final sim. There is still a lot to be excited for and we invited 5 GMs to discuss the happenings of the halfway point in the season. Please welcome our GMS: Greeple, BigDaddyD, NY Magic Garrett, Jedihero and Mike Lowry. Let's get to the topics and see what they have to say.

1. All Star Weekend is approaching. What are you looking forward to with the All Star weekend? Is it something that really matters in this game? Or do you not really care about it?

Greeple: The one thing I'm looking forward to the most is Robert Parish being the starting C in the West. Yeah, I'm sending this after the results, but I already knew he was. Besides that I didn't really care about the all star game.

Now that he IS another starting C all star, I'm waiting for a few offers to roll in...that will not actually happen. Nothing worth my time any way.

BigDaddyD: I'm looking forward to seeing if I have any players make the All Star team again. Wilkins has been on it every season he's been in the league and I'd really like to keep that going. I'd be a little surprised if I had more than just Wilkins, maybe Green can make it again since he's averaging a double double so far. I also want to see where exactly I am in the standings. Hopefully I can keep my playoff positioning so I don't have to feel like I need to panic at the trade deadline. Outside of those two things, I probably won't be looking at too much more when it comes to All Star Weekend. This weekend doesn’t really matter in the Sim World but it’s still fun to see how the players do and who all besides Magic Johnson makes the team ( I pray for the day this dude stops winning MVP)

NY Magic Garrett:Well, I waited to the buzzer to answer these questions, so the all star rosters have already been released, but I was really looking forward to seeing how the game valued the numbers my players were putting up and if it deemed them worthy of not just being all stars, but who would make the starting 5. I knew this was my first season having a real shot at an all star starter. That being said, I believe those personal sentiments I laid out show that in some way and to some people, it does matter and I do really care about it. While it clearly doesn't have any bearing on the actual outcome of the game, outside of delivering a few points here and there, it does provide some feedback directly from the simputer mid season. Thats not nothing. Many will say their player got snubbed or continues to not be recognized, but maybe that is the NPSBL clanker telling you and everyone that person isn't a true winner or game changer like his skills, potential, or season stats might suggest. I do think there is a position saturation factor that can lead to snubs, like JNR mentioned, Reggie T makes his 5th straight averaging 17 and 9 while Kiki and Larry B get the nod over Mike Mitchell who is averaging 26/game which is right there with the other two. Maybe the sim league overlord values what Kiki and Larry are doing more than Mike, maybe Mike has just caught bad breaks being at a position with more stars, maybe its both. I think my point is, there is information to gather from the game at the mid point during the all star weekend. Information matters, no matter how or if you use it. I care about information, so I care about all star weekend. Its also pretty sick when you send 3 people to the game. I like that the computer likes me. Thats my story and Im sticking to it. I love you Moses.

Jedihero: Currently, I could care less about the All-Star Weekend, but with all honestly its because I don’t currently have any all-stars. Back when I had English and Roundfield I was very interested in the weekend and was upset when English didn’t make the All-Star team because he got injured the sim before the game. So really, I think it depends on your team and most likely the better teams are actually interested in it, while the bad teams don’t care.

Mike Lowry: The All Star Break is a critical part of this game, and I look forward to participating as actively as I can. First thing is the obvious part about gaining points for players participating in the festivities. I'm hoping to get at least 2 or 3 participants and maybe win the dunk or 3 point contest. Secondly, I am also looking forward to training my stars for the playoff push. I have a few players that can use a boost and I have a hand full of points that may be perfect to meet some needs for my group effort. I'm also looking for a solid trade to solidify my bench. I have already put out a few feelers, and I hope I can lock something in. And finally, it is when I have to make some decisions about my roster for tax and contract considerations. I need clarity about the apron for repeater implications, but if the apron represents year 1 in the tax I will be cutting a vet min contract to get under the cap. That is unless I swing a deal that would be worth going over. So for me the All Star Break represents my last chance to improve the talent on my team before the push towards the playoffs. After this it is just an aim towards cohesion.

2. Team construction is a big part of Sim League, but so is gameplanning. What is your approach to gameplanning? Do you adjust throughout the season? If you have one piece of advice in terms of gameplanning, what would it be?

BigDaddyD: My biggest advice for game planning is to figure out what you want from your team. Sure, it would be nice to just get all the best players, but it doesn't always work out that way. Unless you're the Spurs. My focus since I got Wilkins in the draft has been defense. I wanted to be a team that could stop other teams from scoring first and then I would focus on getting my offense up. If you look at my team over the past few seasons, I've been near the top of the defensive rankings. Ranked 6th the past two seasons and currently sitting at #1 this season. I slowed my pace down which has helped with slowing down the other teams. I try to not exhaust my players too much but also make sure to not give up easy shots. So figure out what kind of identity you want for you team and build around that. And have patience.

NY Magic Garrett:Oh great question. Really trying to pull out peoples secrets. I like it. Information is key, see above. Jokes aside, I am one of the newer members of this league, but after 4 seasons, I have gathered that game plan can be just as important as team building. You dont need a roster stocked of blues if you have the right gameplan, in turn, a bad gameplan can really sink a team that is stacked with talent on paper. I think there is a lot of examples of that in the league this year and every year I have been playing. You have to find your secret sauce. I do think I am honing in on the numbers I like to start a season with that keep me competitive while I adjust to whatever my current roster build might be. I dont want to give my approach away too much here, but I do think there are some game plan line items that are overvalued and some that are under utilized from what I have seen. I want to be aggressive, but not out of control. While I adjust when I do not like what I see, the goal is always to find the sweet spot that allows you to easily shoot over a "Same" message each week to the DC thread. As far as advice goes, I do not think I am the best person to be giving it, but I would say, once you find a gameplan that works, roll with it. I do not know this for certain, but I feel like the more you keep a successful gameplan the same, the quicker your squad builds good cohesion. Cohesion feels like a low-key major factor to success over the course of a season. So much information hidden in the node. I like information. I think I mentioned that.

Jedihero: Lately I haven’t been changing my game plan much, but again it is mostly due to the fact that I know my team isn’t up to snuff so changing around things during the season doesn’t do much for me.

Mike Lowry: I still feel like I have a lot to learn about game planning for my teams. I know that having an understanding of each of the settings and how they play out for your talent is critical to maximizing production from the talent on my roster, but I feel like I often look at the current attributes of my players and try to match the skill with my game plan, only to have horrible and results that are the opposite of what I was expecting. I probably adjust my game plan as much as anybody in the league based on how my most recent adjustments are playing out. Another thing that I know goes into this equation is the fact that I trade more than most GMs do. So bringing in new players often impacts the cohesion of my team and makes game planning a little tougher. I guess this might be backwards, but I would say that building your team according to a game plan that fits your best players will have the best results. So identifying your foundational players and assessing what they do well is how to aim your game plan, but you have to get role players who can fit into that game plan and support your stars.

Greeple: I love gameplanning. I saw Wig kinda shoot down gameplanning in the town hall during the regular season, and it made sense, but I will definitely gameplan for the toughest team on my schedule during the regular season. Sure, maybe I lose a different game, and it may not be a totally fair assessment of how we might fair in the playoffs (depending how good my team is, the other team may not be planning their best for my team), but it's fun nonetheless.

That said, I think my team almost always ends up with the same gameplan anyway.

3. Imagine you are .500 at the all star break. Which division would you want to be in to try to compete and which division would you be in to tear it down at the trade deadline? Why that division and which approach would you most be excited about?

NY Magic Garrett: If I were even at the break, which I am not because the big boss build an absolute gem this year, I would want to be in the Midwest at the moment. If I was sitting with 25 wins there, I would still feel like I had some type of hope. I would certainly be exploring some moves to make a push at the Spurs. Ultimately I would just need to hope Jordan decides to go play baseball much earlier in his career, but he is also still young and it may be the last time I would be able to make a run at that division for the next sim decade. Now, where would I hate to be? If I had 25 wins currently I would HATE to be in the Atlantic and have to deal with the Knicks, I would never catch them, they are just too good. IM KIDDING! We are good, but goddamn I would hate to be in the Pacific. A lot of good teams out there right now, but that division is loaded and they are just taking turns hurting each other. Fun to watch, but would be an impossible run if you sat at .500 right now. You arent even sniffing the 3rd or even 4th in that division when its all said and done. I would be tearing down for future assets and letting it play out without question. That being said, I think it will surprise some that I would be more excited about the tear down. Playoff pushes are fun, but trying to figure out what to give up and if its worth it is a bleak place, just to pray you some how can change the mediocrity you have been rolling out there. The tear down can give hope and be more fun to plan. I might go dump my players in divison and try to acquire my divison rivals future assets. We all know how quickly things can change and if I cant beat you now, I'll come for your future, while you duke it out with the rest. So give me the tear down. If you have made it to this point in my long ass responses, thank you, also, congratulations, you found the easter egg. Tag me in Discord and say 'nice egg G'

Jedihero: .500 would be 25-25, most likely. I think even though the Spurs might seem scary, they are beatable. The only division that you might have a shot at winning is the Midwest since all the other teams seem to be not doing well. On the flip side, if I were in the Central Division, it would be time to blow it up as 4 of those teams are over .500 and it would take a lot to be able to fight for a playoff spot. I personally enjoy making deals to strengthen my team rather than selling everybody off.

Mike Lowry: Well, .500 would be 7th in the East and 8th in the West right now. So I think the lazy answer is to compete in the East and try to run down the Pacers, but looking at some of the recent activity, I would say the Warriors are going to drop rapidly, and so it's really a question of whether you want to chase the Clippers or chase the Pacers. And personally, I would still chase the Pacers because the Clippers went a long stretch with their best 2 players out and still stayed above water. Rod Higgins been playin some hero ball out there and I Theus gives them a puncher's chance against anyone.
The teams we're basically talking about in possible tear down mode with a decision to make would be the Mavs, Cavs, and Nets. And I think the only one I would tear down would be the Cavs. They're already too far into their salary to keep adding pieces slowly, and are in need of a reset.
The Mavs have made some great moves in my opinion. Walter Davis can move for sure, but I doubt the return would be nickels on the dollar. They're better off dropping some small contracts to dive off the apron and wait until the offseason when cap flexibility opens up.
The Nets are very interesting because they have a ton of talent, but these players will not likely win together. The stars are too early in their development to win it all, but they are too talented to defer to the older guys, who are also still young, and had that run that led to a ship. Those young punks are <expletive deleted> up. I LOVE the move for Kellogg!!! This team will come to life in seasons to come. They're just not ready yet. Actually, I could see any of these 3 teams competing with the kind of talent they have, but they aren't currently matching up well against the competition. Also, the buyers don't have great assets, so the market doesn't have great returns. Which I believe impacts the Cavs the most. They are traditionlly great at developing assets to All Star Caliber and holding on to them unless they get a worthy return. Paxson and Moncrief are studs, but I doubt the market is offering packages that can't be refused. Unfortuntely this will only lead to them staying on the fringe of the playoffs, adding picks in the area of 9 to 15 of the draft, and eventually losing Mahorn as a cap casualty.

Greeple: Ya know, I just totally traded my way out of contention...or so I thought. Then I beat a fully healthy Clippers, Lakers and Bucks.

I also lost to the 76ers and Cavs, so... sim league math makes me a contender for the 6th seed? Maybe?

Jokes aside, my division, the Pacific, is always the last division I'd like to be in. Winning, losing, doesn't matter. We Fryeing kill each other in the Pacific. I do think I'm a .500 team and we went into this sim 2 games over .500 and exited 4 games over, so that was a big surprise, one that may change our view of ourselves as a team. Maybe we SHOULD be contenders!

In my division, or the Central division, i'd want to start tanking, so I'm headed in the wrong direction. I'd want to take a chance in the midwest because it's the Spurs and then the Kings kinda far down the list, but maybe I could compete with the Kings at least...?

BigDaddyD: If I was at .500, I’d want to be in the Atlantic division because of the Celtics and 76ers. Two teams that are either tanking or aren’t following along so that would give me a few more opportunities to get some wins. Any other division and being .500 would be an uphill struggle to get into the playoffs. If I was at .500 and in either the Pacific or the Central divisions, I’d be looking to sell off pieces and get a jumpstart on next season. Both divisions have 4+ teams that are multiple games over .500 and that is not a good recipe for making a late season playoff push. The Pacific has been the toughest division for the past few seasons but the Central is well on its way to being just as tough as the Pacific. Now that we’re past the 84 draft, I think you will see more teams go into compete mode and only have a few teams tanking (minus the GMs who don’t pay attention at all)

4. The trade deadline is coming. When sending an offer, what is your approach? Make it fair as possible? Low ball? When receiving an offer, do you imagine that it is a low ball or a fair offer up front?

Jedihero: When sending an offer, I try to reach out and ask what they are looking for first instead of blindly sending offers. Everyone is trying to get the best bang for their buck in every trade so I wouldn’t say I lowball, but first offer is usually in my favor as I see things. Knowing what I do with my trade offers, I usually believe the first offer that I receive is more of a lower end offer and would rarely accept the first offer thrown my way. Usually involves some discussion between the parties involved so hammer out details that make everyone happy.

Mike Lowry: As you all know, I make a lot of trade offers. I am always trying to move my team in the direction of the strategy at that time. I mostly try to imagine a trade that is fair and makes sense before I offer. If I'm competing I search for players better than my supporting cast, and try to make a package to land the upgrade. If I am rebuilding for the future, I mostly expect teams looking to compete to inquire about all of my assets according to their value. Within a few seasons I will have Buck Williams, Larry Nance, and Darrell Griffith on the block in their primes. Teams with a wealth of assets at that time will have the best opportunity to acquire them. So I guess the balance of strategy might be the most important thing to consider when making my offer. Am I reaching for a star player from a competing team? If so I would imagine paying the highest premium. But if a team is selling off on their way to the tank, the same player would garner a different offer unless the market is competitive.

Greeple: The trade deadline is coming. When sending an offer, what is your approach?

The opposite of LazyTitanSmash's approach, whatever the Frye that is.

Make it fair as possible?

Yeah, I try to come with ideas that could be mutually beneficial. I don't intentionally slime anyone. ...And if someone does feel slimed, or fears a sliming is incumming, I'd rather not do the deal.

Low ball?

I've been ghosted by enough opening offers to not intentionally do this. Part of trading is enjoying an interaction with the other GM.

When receiving an offer, do you imagine that it is a low ball or a fair offer up front?

Depends on the GM. LTS doesn't consider for a single second how the deal might benefit you as well, and that's why I don't like dealing with him. I always receive the most insulting offers from hi...well, he didn't offer 15 for Parish, soo... maybe not ALWAYS the most insulting offers, but enough about LTS.

I don't imagine anything about the offer. I evaluate it. If someone is making an offer, I assume it benefits them. So, I evaluate if it also benefits me. If it might benefit me, I negotiate. If it doesn't benefit me, I at least offer a reply of no thanks. I try not to ghost anyone because getting ghosted sucks. Every once in a while, a mutually beneficial offer hits my inbox and it's a pretty quick "sure, no problem, you wanna post or shall i?" type of situation. Those are awesome. My favorites though, honestly, are just edging with Doug and getting NOTHING accomplished.

BigDaddyD: I admit that I always start with a lower offer but not to the point where I would call it low balling the other GM. I always figure out what’s the most I am willing to give up in a trade and then work my way up to it. If I can get something that’s lower than my max then yay for me. Negotiating is all about finding a middle ground for both teams. Anything can happen in a trade so it’s rare that anybody “wins” or “loses” a trade right when it happens. I typically feel offers sent to me are also on the lower end but more because people value their players so much more than anybody else’s. Or if a GM has to explain why a trade is so great for you, then it usually means it’s not all that great of an offer. Also, I find it’s better in trade discussions to start off with asking if a player is available instead of just sending an offer out. If a GM is willing to trade a player then it’s easier to get counter offers. I’m typically less inclined to negotiate if someone asks for a player I don’t want to get rid of. But also, that probably comes from me not setting up a trade block. I like that some people not only set their trade blocks but also inform GMs of what they are looking for if someone wants to trade for a player on their team. But again, people always over-value their own players and under-value everyone else’s players.

NY Magic Garrett: Another great question. A ton of different trade personalities in this league. Which makes it fun. You know what to expect from people and can dictate how you approach certain trades. I am, or I think I am, a fair trade approach guy. I really put effort into making the offer provide some visual value that could spark some initial thought in my potential trade partner. This, I think, can lead to more consecutive conversations. Of course, I am trying to get better and I want to feel like I got the better end of the trade, but coming in with an obvious low ball is just poor taste. Does not stop some though, but who am to say that is not the right approach. I have seen some questionable trades, so why wouldnt I go to those people with a lower offer to see if they bite. End of the day though, have some respect, I am not selling you my green/green back up for 2 points. Take a hike.

5. There has been some discussion on tanking the past few seasons. Do you see tanking as a problem? Is there a right way to tank or a wrong way to tank? What possible solutions is there to prevent tanking?

Mike Lowry: I believe that tanking is a critical aspect of the strategy of this game. I actually appreciaate that there is aa competitive aspect to who can tank the worst/best. It adds a dynamic for when I just can't compete because I exhausted my resources. It prevents a cookie cutter reset and challenges me to engage to acquire talent.

Greeple: When few people cared in old sim league, I definitely signed some r/r's and started them for a sim. No one said anything. In retrospect, I understand why such a thing would not be cool.

I do think tanking is part of sim league, though, for a lot of GMs. An all-or-nothing approach to a season makes a lot of sense. Playing the middle isn't for everyone, where you win just enough to not be bad enough to take a stab at a high lotto pick. Tanking sucks because it tanks parity in the league, but when we started NPBSL and there was a lot of pushback on new ideas (i.e. salary floors), I realized not everything would change, and thus tanking is probably here to stay. I do think if a GM commandeered a bunch of oranges and reds and tried to run it, they should be given a chance to undo it, or maybe hand their team over to a GM in waiting. I'm not used to having GMs in waiting, but we got'em now, so if anyone is on some <expletive deleted> shit, it should be buhbye with expediency!

BigDaddyD: I personally don’t see anything wrong with tanking. If a team doesn’t want to compete, that’s their choice. But also, if that team just gives away top players for scraps then that would be a problem. I think if we wanted to try and change something with tanking, we could go after the points system. Since we give out a point for every 5 wins, we could do something where you have to hit a certain threshold before getting those points. Like if you finish with less than 20 wins, you don’t get any points. But if you finish with 20 wins, you get 4 points. It’s not much but it could deter some people from tanking too much if they wanted to rebuild while also building up their points bank. And it wouldn’t have to be just wins that they miss out on the points, we could also change it up for other aspects of the game (player awards, stats, etc.). I think having some kind of threshold for GMs to reach before getting points would be a solid deterrent from tanking. Also, I believe it was pointed out in maybe Wig’s podcast or another article about how with the creation draft we now know who will be in what drafts and can plan accordingly. Maybe if we were able to hide some/all of the stats/potentials of the players in the draft, people might be a bit hesitant to tank if they don’t know exactly how good a player is.

NY Magic Garrett: OHHHH BOY! I am the right, or wrong, person for this one. I would like to start with I do not see tanking as a problem. I would also like to say I held this opinion and the opinions I will express later in this response, before I admittedly tanked in 1983 in preparation for 1984 draft. I am not sorry or afraid to admit that. That being said, I absolutely and unequivocally think there is a right way and a wrong way to tank in this beautiful game we play. So since you gave me soap box, I will happily hop on. We all come together to play a computer game, centered around the game of basketball, some know real-life basketball better than others, thats okay, some are here for the numbers and the analysis, thats also okay, but the fact is I believe no matter why you play the game, respect the game. I think respecting the game means understanding why obvious and egregious losing on purpose is bad for basketball not only in the real world but also in the fake world. There are obviously rules and punishments for doing this in the NBA because of the real world financial implications, but also for the integrity of the game. I do not believe we should be taking it as seriously as the NBA, but personally I want play each season knowing there isnt a team or 3 that is an automatic win for anyone who steps on the court with them. NOW, I also think its pretty difficult and has to be very intentional to make your squad be and automatic loss against anyone in the league, but we know it can be done. I am not even asking that everyone play there best players no matter what. So what am I suggesting? I am suggesting putting healthy players on IR in mass and consistently, playing players egregiously out of position, and throwing 1s across the board on your game plan is disrespectful to the game and the people playing it. Not attacking anyone or trying to sound harsh, but I have always been a purist when it comes to fantasy sports games. We can all manipulate the system, its not a big brain move, I actually think the right way to tank involves a lot of strategy and can be a game in itself. Rest a player close to the deadlines to avoid injuries and value, experiment with different game plans you would never use, deal your players and roll out a bad squad, just make sure you dont have someone 6'1" playing Center. As for rules to prevent it, I have no idea if that is feasible honestly. I think it is just a gentleman's agreement to not manipulate the game. I will say my favorite rule I did hear, is if you lose X number of games in a row then you get reverted to 'recommended' until you win. Okay thats all I have to say about that. This game is sick and I think its rad we all compete together for literally nothing. Let's just play.

Jedihero:We had some big discussions recently on tanking, and honestly, I seemed to start them…I really don’t have a problem with tanking in general. We are all playing this “game” for our own reasons, and if someone wants to waste their season blowing it up and tanking for the #1 pick (which is not guaranteed in the lottery) then that is on them. Now, saying that I think there are a few exceptions to this rule. For instance, if you have a playoff level team with good players and you are benching everyone then that’s bad tanking and should be addressed. In my case, I had a bad team with 1 good player that I sat on the IR, and this was more to protect that player from needless injury when I knew my team was bad anyway. Another issue that I do have a problem with is when the league has a whole discussion about tanking and I got called out for doing what I did, and then another team does that same thing and nothing is really said about it. In example, the Celtics this season IR’d one of his good players for multiple sims with the excuse of “saving him for a trade.” I normally would not have an issue with this as I mentioned BUT seeing as I personally did this, got blowback from the league and then the Celtics went and did this after the fact knowing it was an issue? Nah, that bothers me. There were a few solid recommendations for tanking throughout that discussion, my favorite being put to “recommended” after a certain number of losses to try and even it out as I’ve been told there are ways to “quietly tank” by game planning different ways. At the end of the day, we are the GMs and should have full control over what we do with out team regardless of what anyone else might think or say.

That's it. I hope you enjoyed this mid-season 5-on-5. We had some great and varied responses. Please feel free to answer any of the questions or respond to any answer from the GMs. The more engagement the better. I will be having one more 5-on-5 at the end of the season/start of the playoffs, so be on the lookout if you want to participate.

[greepleairport]

@greepleairport 750+ words, +3
@BigDaddyd8720 1000+ words, +4
@NY_Magic_Garrett 1730 words, +5
@Jedihero ~650 words, +2
@Mike Lowry ~1115 words, +4
@logpmess +3 for organizing. +1 more for getting the damn thing done twice