Want to fix the tax problem?

[Darth Vegito]

Open up the Bobcats. Maybe now yall can discuss a fix to this ridiculous issue. Ive tried for 6 seasons now, in purgatory for 6 seasons. The first thing ppl want to say is where is your articles. There are none and if we are now using a person's free time irl to judge how long i must be punished well then we've ventured well beyond my intents for this "fun" game. Ive been barred from playing this GAME for nearly a year. How many of you would stick around for 6 seasons and not be able to even compete or play the game? That sounds fun? Can't spend points, can't use any cap to improve my team to get more wins and more points. This tax system is a punitive Ayn Rand type of cycle that does everything in it power to keep the GMs stuck in it from ever getting out.

No ive never made a suggestion thread but I've made MANY suggestions all of which i get a response of "if only there was some kind of warning before you did this". I think 6 seasons of punishment is enough tbh. Ive accumulated roughly 150ish points atm. Maybe you can take those and give them to the Griz and Celtics when im gone. I'll fall on the sword.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[NOLa.]

Let's take a step back there's no need to quit the team when you've got two great young prospects that can get you wins on a bill that looks like you may have half paid off. I think the reason the GMs are saying these things is because they just want to see more effort. You probably don't even have to get the full media points as long as they see all DCs posted, awards being voted on, free pick em's participated and all that. I don't want to dogpile on the mocking you're getting because it's not deserved, but Chad you didn't get points for DCs or voting on awards last season. These points aren't much but over 6 seasons if you did all DCs and voting that's 48 points for minimal effort.

There's no need for the sword brew, you're half way there just get this paid off and done with.

[JNR]

I'm going to use this to piggyback an actual suggestion: let's work out a bankruptcy program.

I don't have all the details yet, but what do GMs feel about the ability to declare bankruptcy and put your team in a probationary state? Here are a few of the ideas that a few people have kicked around:

- Can only declare bankruptcy once every 10 seasons
- You are eligible to declare bankruptcy if you have been under the cap for the past 2-3 seasons, and if you've been active (up to discretion here, but let's say a minimum of an article a season, mandatory press conference, and not missing more than 2 DCs every season). We can make the bill a certain number to be eligible as well (if your tax is only 150 points, you are not eligible, but say anything above 300 is)
- Any points you currently have will be used to get rid of your entire bill (If your bill is 600 points and you have accumulated 128 points over the past three seasons, you will use all 128 to get rid of your bill)
- After you declare bankruptcy, you have a hard cap for three seasons. You cannot go over the cap for any reason. You are able to acquire and spend points as normal. You may participate in free agency as long as a signing does not bring you over the cap.
- During bankruptcy you are also expected to continue the activity that was aforementioned to make you eligible for bankruptcy
- After three seasons, no more restrictions are needed.

This way it is a max of 5 seasons that your team suffers any penalties. That's 10 months, which may be a long time to be on probation, but it's better than the current system.

I'm open to other tweaks, but I think we can make this something to let GMs who slipped too far into the tax pay their bill and have fun again.

[ballsohard]

I think the solution i would propose would be something like this:

If after 3 seasons you have not paid your taxes back but have met the following thresholds:

• 80% Dc participation
  15 Points made from articles each season
  Participated in 2 of the following 3
  1. HOF Nominations
  2. Awards voting
  3. 50% of Pick'ems

Then you are allowed to resume the following actions:

1. Exercise RFA rights and keep the RFA as long as youre not over the cap
2. May offer max offers again in RFA and UFA as long as it does not bring the team above the cap


Teams must still repay the tax to be able to regain all rights and be able to have all restrictions removed.

[Conroy]

I really wouldn't mind a deeper discussion rather than you knew what you were getting into. Was the tax put in to prevent super teams, or simply just wreckless spending. I will say it's been somewhat interesting trying to navigate out of this hole I've dug myself in, but whats better for the league. GMs trying to sign players and trade and win games, or shed salary, be indifferent to winning, strip a team down strictly for points. Maybe the current system is the lesser of two evils, but I've said from the beginning the amount of points you can earn even in a good season is just not simply close to how punitive the tax can be in terms of points.

[Darth Vegito]

I really wouldn't mind a deeper discussion rather than you knew what you were getting into. Was the tax put in to prevent super teams, or simply just wreckless spending. I will say it's been somewhat interesting trying to navigate out of this hole I've dug myself in, but whats better for the league. GMs trying to sign players and trade and win games, or shed salary, be indifferent to winning, strip a team down strictly for points. Maybe the current system is the lesser of two evils, but I've said from the beginning the amount of points you can earn even in a good season is just not simply close to how punitive the tax can be in terms of points.

You won't get a deep discussion. It's a mindset. It's like asking Rick Scott to restore your voting rights. Shit ain't happening.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[RPF]

Chad serious question here, what would you like done? What officially are you looking for? I don't know about anyone else but I can't read minds. I don't think the debit should be forgiven without some effort from the person in the tax. You went championship or bust and it didn't work out. I fail to believe that you didn't have a plan in place in case it didn't work. Simply state for everyone to see what you would like to happen.

[Darth Vegito]

Chad serious question here, what would you like done? What officially are you looking for? I don't know about anyone else but I can't read minds. I don't think the debit should be forgiven without some effort from the person in the tax. You went championship or bust and it didn't work out. I fail to believe that you didn't have a plan in place in case it didn't work. Simply state for everyone to see what you would like to happen.

I really don't want to do this cause the are clear lines drawn in the sand as to how ppl want to see tax breakers suffer. But since you asked and ive seen you actually suggest things i find to be reasonable i'll tell you:

This is supposed to be a game first and foremost. We have ppl who write lots of articles and are uber active and those who are not yet we welcome all and want all to have fun. We'd love uber activity from all but we usually understand it's not about that it's about having fun.

This system to which, yes i was "warned" i guess you could say is ridiculously punitive and predatory. It's a system where im being told "you broke the rules now pay the consequences WHILE we make much much more difficult to pay those consequences."

Ive not been able to play this game and compete for 5-6 seasons now due to the "restrictions" placed upon me. Can't use any points. Can't sign any players over a min, meaning i can't win games and compete, meaning i can't get any points that way. You've(the league) said to me: "the only way you can get out of this is by activity in a league you can't participate in". Activity and time that i may not have. Despite that ive still been more active than 25% of the league over these 5 seasons. But you see no articles and require that i "give you all more "effort"". You need me to prove to you that i am remorseful by writing articles. Prove by being uber active that i deserve some semblance of a probation. I reject all of this. It's absurd.

I would be for some type of Bankruptcy plan that was put forth above. I have accumulated about 150ish points. I would lose them all. Debt would be cleared. There would be a 3 year period that i would have a hard cap that i could not surpass. I could not train players for those 3 years as well. I could start accumulating points again starting from zero that would be my own. This could only be done once. And the system needs to be revamped.

Try and remember that these "points" weren't money that I spent. I went over the cap. Penalties for this are fine, but when they are tied to the points system and then you restrict from obtaining those points by all means except activity... you're changing this from a game to a job. I want to write articles for my team to benefit, not because i'm forced to because i was careless with the salary in my front office plan. Ive been punished for 6 seasons and have not had fun playing this game. If this is the point then well done. But if we want this to still be a game then this needs to be dealt with.

I saw the word "evidence" used. It says a lot that that word is being used. "Evidence" is used when a crime has been committed. It fits here though because some want this to be criminalized and for me to suffer for my sins. SHOW ME MORE EFFORT, I DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE REPENTANT YET!!!

I don't even want the to be a new rule that says each gm can bankrupt once per lifetime cause that will be abused as always. The Griz and I were the first to venture into the tax as we did. The Celtics are getting the now. We see what happened. I know the Griz GM don't care much about this but i would just say this would be done as a one time thing and then the rules for the lux tax need to be immediately revamped and not tied to strictly activity. Im tired of pecking on this phone. I'll finish here. And i'm not giving any ultimatums: "do this or i quit" most could care less if i quit anyway. I would die on this hill even if i weren't in this situation. That's how strongly i am against this broken and ridiculously punitive system. That is all.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[TheSyndicate]

So that's two votes for bankruptcy!

[IamQuailman]

Honestly, I'm cool with a bankruptcy program. Also would be open to the idea of doing away with "repeater" years all together (same lux tax for your range, regardless the year) or making years 1-2 of lux tax set, and then years 3-4 slightly elevated.

[LoCo89]

[RPF]

I'm down for more discussion on filing for Chapter SLOE but it's a lot to be hashed out and isn't close to be ready for proposal imo. Doug I knew you'd be willing to get rid of the repeater status but as someone who always breaks up his team because of the tax how do you feel about having a get out of jail free card?

[IamQuailman]

I'm down for more discussion on filing for Chapter SLOE but it's a lot to be hashed out and isn't close to be ready for proposal imo. Doug I knew you'd be willing to get rid of the repeater status but as someone who always breaks up his team because of the tax how do you feel about having a get out of jail free card?

The league is ever-evolving, and if we are trending towards teams needing some kinda get out of jail free card, then maybe we need it. I personally wouldn't go as far into the tax, but that's just me. Not everyone will be as aggressive with their spending, but honestly, if this was a short term GM that had done this, they would've up and quit. Chad, Conroy, and Louie are all 3 long-time GMs and while they have suffered (Chad and Louie mostly right now, Conroy on his way), I'd hate to lose them because the game is unplayable for them.

That said, hopefully all of this happening can act as a deterrent to others from being as overly-generous with contracts and bird rights.

[Darth Vegito]

Apparently just bringing this subject up and wanting to play the game i love makes others want to quit. Sooooooo... with that being said let me save you the trouble.
Bobcats open.

I would take this time to thank those levelminded ppl who made some good reasonable suggestions. Maybe yall can get this sorted out before Conroy leaves(i know Louie dgaf and could stay in tax hell for centuries). Hopefully i'm the shining example for the future of what not to do and no less active GMs ever do it(as Doug so eloquently and rightfully pointed out) . And since taxes are tied to GMs directly that will basically prevent me from returning... so on that note i guess it's arrivederci!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[IamQuailman]

Apparently just bringing this subject up and wanting to play the game i love makes others want to quit. Sooooooo... with that being said let me save you the trouble.
Bobcats open.

I would take this time to thank those levelminded ppl who made some good reasonable suggestions. Maybe yall can get this sorted out before Conroy leaves(i know Louie dgaf and could stay in tax hell for centuries). Hopefully i'm the shining example for the future of what not to do and no less active GMs ever do it(as Doug so eloquently and rightfully pointed out) . And since taxes are tied to GMs directly that will basically prevent me from returning... so on that note i guess it's arrivederci!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

My point wasn't a shot at you, just that now we know the ramifications of going 50mil over on 3rd contract supermax dudes. Up until you and louie, it was all hypothetical, no one had gone full in. To say all this won't act as a deterrent for some is just not true.

[Darth Vegito]

Doug...i clearly said you made a good point. If it were other lesser active gms the league would have lost all of them by now and they wouldn't have hung around. Away that point i bet the league would have said "oh shit this is a problem" but since it happens to be me we all like...... anyways that all besides the point now. I was saying the point you made was a good one genius.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[RPF]

[IamQuailman]

Doug...i clearly said you made a good point. If it were other lesser active gms the league would have lost all of them by now and they wouldn't have hung around. Away that point i bet the league would have said "oh shit this is a problem" but since it happens to be me we all like...... anyways that all besides the point now. I was saying the point you made was a good one genius.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Well shiet, I couldn't tell if it was sarcasm or not.

[WigNosy]

My $0.02 if anyone cares.

The number one rule is the league should be fun. When the league ceases to be fun and becomes a chore, owners will tend to leave.

The tax actually IS intended to make the league fun by preventing superteams from forming, re-signing their players for years at a time with no consequences, and absolutely dominating the league for 6 to 10 seasons (one to two years of real time) with the only way to combat it being to form other super-teams... which means the three or four owners that have the superteams have fun and everyone else gets bored while these other owners keep on destroying them. (Imagine the Penny/Hill/Sprewell/McDyess/Wallace Hawks if I hadn't had to jettison Hill and Sprewell to get under the tax or the Noah/Gasol/Anthony/Gay/Lin Hawks if I hadn't had to move Gasol and Lin to dodge the tax). We've gone 17 seasons now without a repeat champion because college players aren't good until they're expensive, and because they're expensive, a super core can't stay together as long.

So the tax is pretty much doing what it's supposed to do to support competition. Teams generally have a 2 to 5 year championship window, they can't accumulate enough to be ridiculously overpowered, and then they have to rebuild. There are 8 to 10 teams every season with legitimate shots to win the title, and every year 2 or 3 teams fall out of that group and 2 to 3 different teams join it.

It is, however, appropriate to ask, "is it TOO punitive?" And I think there is definitely something to look at here. I happen think the repeater aspect of the tax IS a good thing, because that's the "teeth" that keeps teams from being able to generate enough points to pay the tax year after year - it is necessary to break a team up. On the other hand, once a has been broken up, is there a legitimate need to continue punishing them? I would suggest the answer is, "no."

To me, once the tax has fulfilled its purpose - breaking up a team - there is no need to continue inflicting punishment on that team. How does one measure "breaking up a team?" Well, I think it's pretty simple. We have 4-year contracts (except 5-year BR signings). Since the year the team incurs the tax bill is Year 1, that means only 3 seasons are left on those contracts (4 seasons for a BR signing). After three (or four) offseasons, you are guaranteed a complete turnover of the team (except for vet mins who hang on, but if nobody has offered those hangers-on more than vet mins, it doesn't matter). If "complete roster turnover" isn't "breaking up a team" I don't know what is.

So my proposal would be that a team that gets hit with the luxury tax penalty should have all outstanding debts forgiven and their bill wiped to zero after the end of the first off-season in which both of the following conditions are met:

1. The team has not incurred any luxury tax payments for three consecutive seasons.
2. Any player on the team in the first year of a five-year deal the year the tax was most recently incurred must be off the roster (so you can't get forgiveness in the final year of his deal then use Bird Rights to re-up that player).

This is pretty easy to track - you can easily tell if the team has been on the tax list and you just have to make a quick roster check from four seasons prior.

For example, the Bobcats rolled up their huge bill at the end of the 2019 season. Klay Thompson was on their roster with a 5-year deal. If they went through the 2020, 2021, and 2022 seasons without paying a tax bil, they could apply for relief at the end of the 2023 off-season (i.e., after missing out on RFA and UFA), allowing him to set his bank to 0 and start accumulating positive point totals for preseason pressers, articles, etc. (In this case the petition would be denied because Klay Thompson was still on their roster in 2023; they could petition again in 2024 and now that they had met both conditions would be reset to 0 as of the end of this most recent off-season).

This limits tax hell to four off-seasons (five if you can't/won't trade away a 5-year contract dude) but does get you "back in the game" after just over three seasons (about 6 months of real time).

[IamQuailman]

My $0.02 if anyone cares.

The number one rule is the league should be fun. When the league ceases to be fun and becomes a chore, owners will tend to leave.

The tax actually IS intended to make the league fun by preventing superteams from forming, re-signing their players for years at a time with no consequences, and absolutely dominating the league for 6 to 10 seasons (one to two years of real time) with the only way to combat it being to form other super-teams... which means the three or four owners that have the superteams have fun and everyone else gets bored while these other owners keep on destroying them. (Imagine the Penny/Hill/Sprewell/McDyess/Wallace Hawks if I hadn't had to jettison Hill and Sprewell to get under the tax or the Noah/Gasol/Anthony/Gay/Lin Hawks if I hadn't had to move Gasol and Lin to dodge the tax). We've gone 17 seasons now without a repeat champion because college players aren't good until they're expensive, and because they're expensive, a super core can't stay together as long.

So the tax is pretty much doing what it's supposed to do to support competition. Teams generally have a 2 to 5 year championship window, they can't accumulate enough to be ridiculously overpowered, and then they have to rebuild. There are 8 to 10 teams every season with legitimate shots to win the title, and every year 2 or 3 teams fall out of that group and 2 to 3 different teams join it.

It is, however, appropriate to ask, "is it TOO punitive?" And I think there is definitely something to look at here. I happen think the repeater aspect of the tax IS a good thing, because that's the "teeth" that keeps teams from being able to generate enough points to pay the tax year after year - it is necessary to break a team up. On the other hand, once a has been broken up, is there a legitimate need to continue punishing them? I would suggest the answer is, "no."

To me, once the tax has fulfilled its purpose - breaking up a team - there is no need to continue inflicting punishment on that team. How does one measure "breaking up a team?" Well, I think it's pretty simple. We have 4-year contracts (except 5-year BR signings). Since the year the team incurs the tax bill is Year 1, that means only 3 seasons are left on those contracts (4 seasons for a BR signing). After three (or four) offseasons, you are guaranteed a complete turnover of the team (except for vet mins who hang on, but if nobody has offered those hangers-on more than vet mins, it doesn't matter). If "complete roster turnover" isn't "breaking up a team" I don't know what is.

So my proposal would be that a team that gets hit with the luxury tax penalty should have all outstanding debts forgiven and their bill wiped to zero after the end of the first off-season in which both of the following conditions are met:

1. The team has not incurred any luxury tax payments for three consecutive seasons.
2. Any player on the team in the first year of a five-year deal the year the tax was most recently incurred must be off the roster (so you can't get forgiveness in the final year of his deal then use Bird Rights to re-up that player).

This is pretty easy to track - you can easily tell if the team has been on the tax list and you just have to make a quick roster check from four seasons prior.

For example, the Bobcats rolled up their huge bill at the end of the 2019 season. Klay Thompson was on their roster with a 5-year deal. If they went through the 2020, 2021, and 2022 seasons without paying a tax bil, they could apply for relief at the end of the 2023 off-season (i.e., after missing out on RFA and UFA), allowing him to set his bank to 0 and start accumulating positive point totals for preseason pressers, articles, etc. (In this case the petition would be denied because Klay Thompson was still on their roster in 2023; they could petition again in 2024 and now that they had met both conditions would be reset to 0 as of the end of this most recent off-season).

This limits tax hell to four off-seasons (five if you can't/won't trade away a 5-year contract dude) but does get you "back in the game" after just over three seasons (about 6 months of real time).

Great suggestion wig. What if you don't have a 5year player in that 1st year? that criteria is N/A?

[WigNosy]

That is correct. If you didn't have a 5 year player in the first year of his deal, that criterion is automatically satisfied. The idea is to ensure you've had to turn your entire roster over (except for repeat vet min signings that inexplicably love you and if nobody has cared enough to pry them away with bigger deals, more power to you, they're not worth worrying about).

[Sources]

Yeah with a tax bill of about 270 points this year Its without a doubt title or bust. With the "player" who decided to leave, I would have bet large amounts of money that Charlotte would have won the title this year. Now that has changed yet we are in the same circumstances tax wise. We have no 1st rounders. I'm not really interested in handing other teams top picks. So when ppl talk about how ridiculous it is for me to run up this tax, it's either that or give the Pistons, Knicks, and what ever other team has my pick the best player in the upcoming drafts. So rather than that, I'll contend and rack up this tax bill to the likes that this league has never seen.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[ballsohard]

All-

I think over the course of a day- We've had some fantastic discussions about this. Some of it helpful, some of it a little dramatic, im sure we can all admit, but it pushed the discussion further than it's ever gone. I'm going to say something completely as Ballsohard (Scott) {{{Puts on his personal cap}}} and not as the commissioner in this scenerio. I think this league is better with Chad in it. He's a friend, and i really don't think we should forget, while the league at it's surface is a competitive league, this is all a bunch of guys with a similar interest that use out increasingly valuable (with age and responsibilities) free time.

[[[Commish cap}}} With that being said, i think 1 day probably is not long enough to vote on this issue and to hash out the specifics of a relief plan, if that's the route we take. My plan is to do the following.

All Star Break-
-I will put up a league vote on whether the league is for or against Tax relief in ANY form. It will be a yes or no majority vote. Please vote for the good of the league, not personal bias and interest.

End of season- (If the first for is in favor of relief)
-I will post a set of the best outlines options and we will roll with that going forward.

[Darth Vegito]

Yeah with a tax bill of about 270 points this year Its without a doubt title or bust. With the "player" who decided to leave, I would have bet large amounts of money that Charlotte would have won the title this year. Now that has changed yet we are in the same circumstances tax wise. We have no 1st rounders. I'm not really interested in handing other teams top picks. So when ppl talk about how ridiculous it is for me to run up this tax, it's either that or give the Pistons, Knicks, and what ever other team has my pick the best player in the upcoming drafts. So rather than that, I'll contend and rack up this tax bill to the likes that this league has never seen.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Why hide behind sources you punk? Want to say something say it like a man with your name on it.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[IamQuailman]

Can i add just another idea that can piggyback off Raby's idea or Scott's idea? Raby spoke to this on the podcast last night that I half-baked wrote to him while i was at the Pels game half-watching the game and half-watching to make sure my son wasn't falling over into the next row of seats.

So Raby and Scott both talked about someone racks up an enormous tax bill.. they get under the cap for 3 seasons or so and, with meeting whatever the "active GM" criteria maybe be, the tax-debtor GM will get some tax-based restrictions lifted. The difference I noticed in Raby's proposal and Scott's was that Raby's would wipe out the outstanding bill after X seasons of good standing. Scott's would require that you pay the tax balance out in full.

What I'm getting to is --> let's meet in the middle? After a team with a tax bill has been under the cap for 3 consecutive seasons and has been working towards paying off the bill (all points earned in those 3 seasons go towards the bill), the team would then be eligible to SLOE-ptima Tax Relief. Basically, the remaining tax balance after that 3 year time span would be halved.

Example Scenario:
- GM racks up tax bill of like 300
- GM gets under tax apron next season
- GM remains under tax apron for next 3 seasons
- GM earns 150 pts over those 3 seasons; tax balance after points is 150
- Entering the 4th season, GM would have his 150pt tax balance halved to 75pts (something that could very easily be paid off in one season with trades, articles, etc)
- Additionally in that 4th season, GM would have some restrictions lifted off of them to participate in RFA, etc.

This would give SOME relief to a GM that has done their time (at least 6 months of real life), but require them to still pay off a balance after "good behavior"