Revise Rookie Contract Trainings (Again)

[WigNosy]

I usually don't like reopening items we have voted on this soon, but it's rapidly become clear that the current rookie contract training system is complex and rather unwieldly - and simplifying it would be highly beneficial to the league. So I'm going to reopen that can of worms.

PHILOSOPHY:

There is a difference between tanking and rebuilding. Rebuilding is reducing a team's current talent level in order to gain assets with future potential and is done at the General Manager/Roster Construction level. This is a legitimate strategy in a league where you are taking the role of a GM. Tanking is deliberately causing a roster as currently constituted to underperform. While we no longer have rules specifically forbidding it (because it is a subjective thing), nothing in the league structure should actively encourage attempts to underperform with a team's current talent level.

This is a philosophical imperative - it is damaging to competitive balance for the league to actively encourage tanking.

It is for this reason that the league uses a lottery instead of directly awarding the worst team the top pick.
It is for this reason that the league awards points based on regular-season winning streaks and total regular season wins.

High-potential rookies generally come into the league more raw than ever before. This means that playing these rawer rookies ahead of established talent - which usually means a worse team on the floor - should not be encouraged by league rules.

Direct incentives for giving rookies playing time regardless of their skill level - first implemented in our awarding points if a rookie plays 30+ mpg (probably copied by AD23 from other sim leagues, as was most of the rest of his points system) and later changes to create our current system of free rookie trainings - have encouraged teams to play rawer rookies ahead of established talent - either forcing the team to make a choice between trying to win now or develop rookies for the future or worse, by "giving teams an excuse to hide behind when tanking."

As stated previously, the league rules should not encourage this, so it is time to modify or excise these rules. Also, the current system is hideously complex. We need to reduce the learning curve to get new GMs into the league, not increase it.

"Free Rookie Training" based on minutes played needs to go.

However, we must also be mindful of the fact that the rookies generated by the college system tend to be more raw than before and so consideration could also be given to making sure their development isn't stunted by removal of the current rookie training system.

APPLICATION:

Any proposals that increase the amount of sim points in the economy (e.g., changing the luxury tax such that non-taxpaying teams get some distribution of points paid in by the tax payers) is also a potential gain for rookies as it makes more points available to train them (granted, there's no guarantee those points will be spent on rookies but the opportunity is there).

Let's also look at the current rookie training system for a moment to get a feel for its current value in the sim point economy. Very few players reach 3000 minutes in a season, but with good luck and health, it is possible. With our current threshold system, a player could - in theory - receive 6, 5, 4, and 3 RCT points over the life of his rookie contract. Assuming a rookie always uses those in the highest-value way possible - training an attribute in the "B" band (2.1 league points per attribute increase) the maximum possible total value of RCT is 6+5+4+3 = 18 times 2.1 or 37.8 league points.

Note that protecting a rookie via TC insurance in that span would cost 40 points. Removing the need for TC insurance would be a net GAIN for rookies. Any proposal that makes TC insurance free for all players on their rookie contracts but removes Rookie Training is a net gain for rookies as the cost savings in insurance more than offsets the "free points lost" by removing RCTs. There is absolutely no "other side" in that discussion, by the way. That 40 is greater than 37.8 is a mathematical fact. If free TC insurance is limited to only 2 players, that of course changes the dynamics of the discussion, since if nobody ever traded picks away, each team would have 6 players on rookie deals (4 first round picks and 2 second round picks) under contract and thus doesn't get the full benefit of the 40 points - but then, playing 6 players 3000 minutes each isn't realistic either, so the discussion there can go back and forth. But what I'm going to propose here is even more simple.

PROPOSAL: Every rookie gets 25 "use it or lose it" points for weight room training after his first TC (i.e., before he ever plays a game). That means 25 league points not 25 attribute points - normal spending rules regarding bands and so forth apply, so you can't bump an attribute unless the potential is in the next band up, you can't bump it more than 10 points at once, etc. - upping a 26 INS to 36 will run you 15 points. These trainings would take place BEFORE any paid training. This would be separate and distinct from spending "normal" points (so, for instance, you could then spend normal points to up the now-36 INS to 46). This replaces the current Rookie Contract Training system in its entirety.

As a separate voting item, conditioned on the first proposal passing, allow multiple foul trainings to be purchased with the use it or lose it points instead of just one.

Also a separate voting item would be whether these points could be spent on potential.

Also also separate vote if these points could be spent on athletic ratings.

This simple method fixes a number of issues. Rookies too raw? They're now less raw. You don't have to meet a minutes threshold with your rookie to get a benefit; if he's still not ready you don't even have to worry you're going to "miss out" on something if you don't put him out on the floor. All the complexity of tracking minutes and thresholds is gone. No more reason to throw rookies out for extended minutes if they aren't ready (so no complaints about excuses to tank or being forced to tank). It also has the desirable side effect of giving every owner a reason to be involved in the offseason training aspect of the league (unless they traded away all their picks). Even teams that are in luxury tax hell can still get use out of their "use it or lose it" points.

Please discuss.

[WigNosy]

Although to be totally honest my personal preference if we move the luxury tax apron up and pass luxury tax redistribution and any sort of free TC insurance is “eliminate rookie trainings entirely.” Teams will be freeing up a lot of points they can use to train rookies in that case.

[IamQuailman]

I like this proposal; it's simplistic and helps these raw players get a little boost after the 1st season. Current RCT would give players who play a lot of minutes pts to boost their current ratings anyway (possibly more than what you could buy with the 25 in this proposal).

That said, I'm also ok with doing away with RCT as well

[IamQuailman]

Thanks for putting a lot of time and energy into these proposals, Wig. They are really great ideas and articulated way better than I could ever hope to.

[false9]

Thanks for putting a lot of time and energy into these proposals, Wig. They are really great ideas and articulated way better than I could ever hope to.

+1

Also, would the 25 points also apply to second rounders?

[Inner_GI]

I like this proposal. I don't think it should be used on potential, but I think we have to allow it because some GMs this past year were unable to use their RCT effectively.

I'm of the mind to remove RCT all together. Just raising the lux tax line and free insurance that's at least 20-30 points to every team that insurers a couple players and pays a minimal tax bill.

[ballsohard]

I like this proposal.

I really dont think it should be used on potentials.

I really dont think it should be used on athleticism.

[IamQuailman]

Yeah, I agree with the only towards current ratings sentiment

[IamQuailman]

As a separate voting item, conditioned on the first proposal passing, allow multiple foul trainings to be purchased with the use it or lose it points instead of just one.

I missed this the first time... but i love this idea. Allowing possibly a nice bump in the foul training for those guys who come in really low.

[NOLa.]

PROPOSAL: Every rookie gets 25 "use it or lose it" points for weight room training after his first TC (i.e., before he ever plays a game). That means 25 league points not 25 attribute points - normal spending rules regarding bands and so forth apply, so you can't bump an attribute unless the potential is in the next band up, you can't bump it more than 10 points at once, etc. - upping a 26 INS to 36 will run you 15 points. These trainings would take place BEFORE any paid training. This would be separate and distinct from spending "normal" points (so, for instance, you could then spend normal points to up the now-36 INS to 46). This replaces the current Rookie Contract Training system in its entirety.

Love it and all for it. Simple and already beats out the previous systems. As mentioned by Andy, is this just for 1st round picks or does it include 2nd rounders? I don't think it should include 2nd rounders only because that's an additional 30 players to be trained and most get cut anyways.

As a separate voting item, conditioned on the first proposal passing, allow multiple foul trainings to be purchased with the use it or lose it points instead of just one.

Support to the fullest extent, the personal foul ratings are so odd. #1 picks like Ben Simmons and De La Rosa should not have single digit foul ratings.

Also a separate voting item would be whether these points could be spent on potential.

Do not support. Potentials should only be trained using actual team points spent from their bank, not given out for free. TC Insurance should help stabilize potentials and boosts here are not needed. RCP was mainly to speed up the process of these raw players.

Also also separate vote if these points could be spent on athletic ratings.

I'm on the fence. We allowed it in the RCP but I'm back and forth on whether athletic ratings should be paid for or wholly sacrificed using these league points for just a few rating increase.

[IamQuailman]

If voted on and approved, does it go into effect for the upcoming draft class forward or will the most recent draft class benefit from this?

Will current rookie deal year 3, 4, and rfa/ufa deal year 1 players who would've qualified for original rct still be able to claim those pts? Staggered sunset or are they just SOL?

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[WigNosy]

If voted on and approved, does it go into effect for the upcoming draft class forward or will the most recent draft class benefit from this?

Will current rookie deal year 3, 4, and rfa/ufa deal year 1 players who would've qualified for original rct still be able to claim those pts? Staggered sunset or are they just SOL?

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It would affect the first draft class to pass through TC after it passes.

Players who would have qualified for the original RTC would not be able to claim those points. Just as players who were in year 3 or 4 or rookie deals when we added RTC were not able to retroactively go back and claim RCT for year 2 or 3 respectively.

[Conroy]

If voted on and approved, does it go into effect for the upcoming draft class forward or will the most recent draft class benefit from this?

Will current rookie deal year 3, 4, and rfa/ufa deal year 1 players who would've qualified for original rct still be able to claim those pts? Staggered sunset or are they just SOL?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

It would affect the first draft class to pass through TC after it passes.

Players who would have qualified for the original RTC would not be able to claim those points. Just as players who were in year 3 or 4 or rookie deals when we added RTC were not able to retroactively go back and claim RCT for year 2 or 3 respectively.

So do they continue to use RTC points throughout their Rookie Contract, or would that program just die?

[WigNosy]

If voted on and approved, does it go into effect for the upcoming draft class forward or will the most recent draft class benefit from this?

Will current rookie deal year 3, 4, and rfa/ufa deal year 1 players who would've qualified for original rct still be able to claim those pts? Staggered sunset or are they just SOL?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

It would affect the first draft class to pass through TC after it passes.

Players who would have qualified for the original RTC would not be able to claim those points. Just as players who were in year 3 or 4 or rookie deals when we added RTC were not able to retroactively go back and claim RCT for year 2 or 3 respectively.

So do they continue to use RTC points throughout their Rookie Contract, or would that program just die?

That program would just die. Getting rid of the extra complexity was kind of the point of the suggestion.

[WigNosy]

If "Three for Free" Training Camp Insurance passes, this proposal is to eliminate rookie contract trainings entirely. We'll be adding a huge number of points into the sim-conomy by passing Three for Free (up to 900 points saved on TC insurance - 30 teams times 30 points per season) and don't need to add even more (another 1500 points - 60 draft picks per season times 25 points each).

If "Three for Free" Training Camp Insurance fails, this proposal should be to allow 25 "Use it or Lose it" points as in the original post.

[Conroy]

I think this is a great idea I really do, I just selfishly feel like my guys in the last 1-2 rookie classes are kinda getting screwed here. They received 4-6 or so RCT points base off playing time, now they don't get any extra rookie training, the new rookie classes will now have their heights bumped and get 25 use it or lose it points.

[TheSyndicate]

I think this is a great idea I really do, I just selfishly feel like my guys in the last 1-2 rookie classes are kinda getting screwed here. They received 4-6 or so RCT points base off playing time, now they don't get any extra rookie training, the new rookie classes will now have their heights bumped and get 25 use it or lose it points.

Well I think what Wig is saying is that you can use the 30 points you'll save on TC insurance for training those guys, so that's pretty much a wash. The height thing, though, yeah is a tough pill if that passes.

[Conroy]

I think this is a great idea I really do, I just selfishly feel like my guys in the last 1-2 rookie classes are kinda getting screwed here. They received 4-6 or so RCT points base off playing time, now they don't get any extra rookie training, the new rookie classes will now have their heights bumped and get 25 use it or lose it points.

Well I think what Wig is saying is that you can use the 30 points you'll save on TC insurance for training those guys, so that's pretty much a wash. The height thing, though, yeah is a tough pill if that passes.

Yeah I get that, and again I'm in the minority it's selfish reasons my two best players fall into this category and it looks like they are just going to be undersized and under developed in comparison to guys drafted before them or after them. Even before the complicated RCT there was free rookie training...so unless I'm reading this wrong (which I do often) this most recent draft class (Ulis, Gebhart, De LaRosa, etc...) get no free training since RCT is dead and 25 use it or lose it is immediately after a rookie's first TC before they play a game.

[IamQuailman]

Wait, is this "Use it or lose it" proposal off the table if Free TC comes in? I still like the Use it or lose it and that it could exist independent of whatever the Training Camp decision may turn out to be.

If 3 FREE TC is approved, then the current RCT is repealed? That isn't stated explicitly anywhere as the being tied to the Free TC proposal (unless that is one of those subsequent votes).

I would rather see 3 options: No RCT, RCT Current or 25 Use or Lose as the options we vote on if 3 FREE comes into fruition (which it looks like it will).

[Darth Vegito]

I think this is a great idea I really do, I just selfishly feel like my guys in the last 1-2 rookie classes are kinda getting screwed here. They received 4-6 or so RCT points base off playing time, now they don't get any extra rookie training, the new rookie classes will now have their heights bumped and get 25 use it or lose it points.

Well I think what Wig is saying is that you can use the 30 points you'll save on TC insurance for training those guys, so that's pretty much a wash. The height thing, though, yeah is a tough pill if that passes.

Yeah I get that, and again I'm in the minority it's selfish reasons my two best players fall into this category and it looks like they are just going to be undersized and under developed in comparison to guys drafted before them or after them. Even before the complicated RCT there was free rookie training...so unless I'm reading this wrong (which I do often) this most recent draft class (Ulis, Gebhart, De LaRosa, etc...) get no free training since RCT is dead and 25 use it or lose it is immediately after a rookie's first TC before they play a game.

phpBB [video]

[WigNosy]

Wait, is this "Use it or lose it" proposal off the table if Free TC comes in? I still like the Use it or lose it and that it could exist independent of whatever the Training Camp decision may turn out to be.

If 3 FREE TC is approved, then the current RCT is repealed? That isn't stated explicitly anywhere as the being tied to the Free TC proposal (unless that is one of those subsequent votes).

I would rather see 3 options: No RCT, RCT Current or 25 Use or Lose as the options we vote on if 3 FREE comes into fruition (which it looks like it will).

To be clear, the vote on 3 for free does NOT mean RCT will be repealed if it passes. What we wind up doing with RCT will be determined in the second wave of proposals.

[WigNosy]

I think this is a great idea I really do, I just selfishly feel like my guys in the last 1-2 rookie classes are kinda getting screwed here. They received 4-6 or so RCT points base off playing time, now they don't get any extra rookie training, the new rookie classes will now have their heights bumped and get 25 use it or lose it points.

Well I think what Wig is saying is that you can use the 30 points you'll save on TC insurance for training those guys, so that's pretty much a wash. The height thing, though, yeah is a tough pill if that passes.

Yeah I get that, and again I'm in the minority it's selfish reasons my two best players fall into this category and it looks like they are just going to be undersized and under developed in comparison to guys drafted before them or after them. Even before the complicated RCT there was free rookie training...so unless I'm reading this wrong (which I do often) this most recent draft class (Ulis, Gebhart, De LaRosa, etc...) get no free training since RCT is dead and 25 use it or lose it is immediately after a rookie's first TC before they play a game.

Players who played minutes to qualify for RCT this past season will get it in the coming offseason since those minutes were played under the current RCT regime. They already earned those RCTs.

Propositions to come later may affect whether they are rewarded for minutes played in future seasons.

[IamQuailman]

Wait, is this "Use it or lose it" proposal off the table if Free TC comes in? I still like the Use it or lose it and that it could exist independent of whatever the Training Camp decision may turn out to be.

If 3 FREE TC is approved, then the current RCT is repealed? That isn't stated explicitly anywhere as the being tied to the Free TC proposal (unless that is one of those subsequent votes).

I would rather see 3 options: No RCT, RCT Current or 25 Use or Lose as the options we vote on if 3 FREE comes into fruition (which it looks like it will).

To be clear, the vote on 3 for free does NOT mean RCT will be repealed if it passes. What we wind up doing with RCT will be determined in the second wave of proposals.

Gotcha, sorry didn't mean to jump to conclusions.

[Darth Vegito]

Wait, is this "Use it or lose it" proposal off the table if Free TC comes in? I still like the Use it or lose it and that it could exist independent of whatever the Training Camp decision may turn out to be.

If 3 FREE TC is approved, then the current RCT is repealed? That isn't stated explicitly anywhere as the being tied to the Free TC proposal (unless that is one of those subsequent votes).

I would rather see 3 options: No RCT, RCT Current or 25 Use or Lose as the options we vote on if 3 FREE comes into fruition (which it looks like it will).

To be clear, the vote on 3 for free does NOT mean RCT will be repealed if it passes. What we wind up doing with RCT will be determined in the second wave of proposals.

Gotcha, sorry didn't mean to jump to conclusions.