42's Secret Stash

[42PhD]

This year's draft seems to have been met with great disdain by many GM's around the League, including some who had no pick. I've written about the value of first round picks, and some of the objectors to my claim that picks were in fact overvalued were selling their picks, so there is some agreement.

That said, that doesn't mean that picks should be viewed as useless or a near-burden just because the draft file isn't the best ever.

Enter: The Stash.

1) Any player with

a) yellow-or-lower potential

or

b) green-or-higher potential with orange-or-lower current

can be stashed. It need not be a draft pick or a player on rookie or minimum contract.

2) A team can stash exactly one player per season and he must be declared prior to first Sim of the regular season.

3) The stashed player must be on IR the entire season for the stash to count. If he is called up to the active roster at all, the stash does not count. The team loses nothing other than the benefit of the stash.

4) If the player remains on the team following the next training camp and meets the criteria in 1) after TC, then the player can get "extra rookie training." If the player does not meet the criteria in 1) after TC (i.e. they are already "too good") then the Stash training is null.

5) There is no limit on the number of times a player can be stashed.


The idea here is that a team can hold onto a player who just isn't there, and if they commit to the player, which limits flexibility a little or alot or may even cost a team tax points, they get a greater potential of getting some return on their investment. This is a a way to protect the value of a draft pick, protect picks from a shallow draft (a little), and give teams with cap space a way to "manufacture" use their cap space in a new way. It also gives some added value to second round picks, particularly with the possible RFA addition.


This will require some coordination, but it may be a good addition that adds another tool to the GM toolkit, will help to produce some middle class players, and allow teams to groom a guy they like but that just isn't there yet.


As always, discuss, comment, etc.

ETA: If this is implemented, the Cavaliers will opt out of this season's round of stash's if enough swing voters wished it to be.

[JNR]

I think it's a really interesting idea. I'd be willing to explore it a little more.

[IamQuailman]

Question: If you stash a player 2 or 3 times, would you still get the proposed stash training?

[TheSyndicate]

Question: If you stash a player 2 or 3 times, would you still get the proposed stash training?

I think as long as they haven't gotten over the criteria (yellow potential or green+ potential with orange current)

[IamQuailman]

If you designate a player as a stash, can you trade him still? If you do, does his stash designation carry over? What if the other team has a stash already? Just thought to discuss.

[42PhD]

Question: If you stash a player 2 or 3 times, would you still get the proposed stash training?

You wouldn't. I would, though.

Here is my thought.

I'll use Nick's pick 29 of PJ Tucker.

1) This season. He is O/Y. After TC, say he's O/Y. Stash him.

Next season. After TC, say he's Y/Y. He is eligible for the bump. Apply it. Whatever happens, he is fine. Done. If he turns Y/G or G/G, congrats. Now, if he is eligible after the bump, he can get stashed again or not.


2) This season. He is O/Y. After TC, say he's O/Y. Stash him.

Next season. After TC, say he's Y/G. He is not eligible for the bump, but you have a better player. If he gets hurt or killed next TC, you can try again.

3) This season. He is O/Y. After TC, say he's Y/Y. Stash him.

Next season. After TC, say he's O/Y. He is eligible for the bump. Apply it. Whatever happens, he is fine. Done. If he turns Y/Y or Y/G, congrats. Now, if he is eligible after the bump, he can get stashed again or not.

I see no reason not to stack stashes. They system does not allow Y/G guys or better to get the bump, though, and they have to do it AFTER TC. In fact, no player gets it without getting hit with 2 TC's.

To me, also, you can trade a stashed player, but I am not sure if he should stay stashed or not. My feeling is no... It should be a commitment.

[42PhD]

Bump

[WigNosy]

As I understand it, this basically boils down to, "a player can be stashed on IR all season and gets the same benefits of a rookie training as a rookie who plays 30+ minutes per season" (correct me if I'm wrong).

The reason rookies that play 30+ mpg get a free training was to reflect the extra speed of development that playing time grants. This suggestion - that players get better by NOT playing - seems to fly in the face of that.

I should note that stashing a player on IR all season already grants a mild benefit - the player does not accumulate a year of service, depressing the value of his salary at the minimum level when he enters free agency, and allowing teams another season (or more, depending on how long he is benched) before he is eligible for the 30% or 35% max (in the unlikely event that occurs).

It's definitely an out-of-the box suggestion, and I commend you for that, 42, but I think this is a needlessly complex addition that does not reflect the verisimilitude we are trying to have in the league.

[42PhD]

Bump, will retort.

[42PhD]

If you designate a player as a stash, can you trade him still? If you do, does his stash designation carry over? What if the other team has a stash already? Just thought to discuss.

To me, if you trade him, then the other team does not get that benefit. You have to have the guy on the team from the Sim 1 DC until after the following TC.

Gotta be a multiseason deal, then. Remember, designed to work with 2nd Round RFA, but separate idea.

[42PhD]

As I understand it, this basically boils down to, "a player can be stashed on IR all season and gets the same benefits of a rookie training as a rookie who plays 30+ minutes per season" (correct me if I'm wrong).

The reason rookies that play 30+ mpg get a free training was to reflect the extra speed of development that playing time grants. This suggestion - that players get better by NOT playing - seems to fly in the face of that.

I should note that stashing a player on IR all season already grants a mild benefit - the player does not accumulate a year of service, depressing the value of his salary at the minimum level when he enters free agency, and allowing teams another season (or more, depending on how long he is benched) before he is eligible for the 30% or 35% max (in the unlikely event that occurs).

It's definitely an out-of-the box suggestion, and I commend you for that, 42, but I think this is a needlessly complex addition that does not reflect the verisimilitude we are trying to have in the league.

Ahhh, but you need to pretend, my robotic friend. This is basically a Euro stash. He is playing... Elsewhere. That is why he can't be called up, is not accumulating service, and gets credit... But only if it does not come naturally and only if a team commits to him.

If the take him off IR for any reason or he leaves the team, the illusion is broken and is a regular guy.

It only works if the guy is fringe, which mirrors reality.

The benefits you name to stashing a guy on IR anyway, in most cases benefit the entire league equally since these guys enter FA quickly. Also, teams will pay a cost matching that benefit if they cut him, and it is not much either way.

Combined with 2nd round rfa, this is even more real. The commitment leads to a better player eventually more likely than without, but you get him for a shorter time since he had to grow. But, you get more from your 2nd rounders and GM's get another way to tune their roster and show off their skills.

As for complexity, it is not hard. Make a list at Sim 1. Check after TC.

Rinse, repeat.

Thoughts?

[WigNosy]

May I propose an alternative "stash" method for discussion (which actually dovetails nicely with the sim engine's behavior)?

If a player does not play in a regular-season game (e.g., he has been on the Inactive List all season), FBB does not accrue a year of service to him - he still displays as a rookie.

What if we expanded that concept a little bit? It costs you the cap space of the player's contract to hold him on your IR, but if a rookie doesn't play all season, his contract "doesn't start" - i.e., instead of having 3 years left on a first-round pick's deal or 1 year left on a second-round pick's deal, you have 4 years/2 years respectively.

(As a concrete example from my own team, since I'm familiar with it most, Andrea Bargnani did not play at in the regular season last year. His contract is now down to 3 years at $2,431,384 / $2,716,141 / $3,022,802. Under this proposed system, his contract would be instead 4 years at $2,190,436 / $2,431,384 / $2,716,141 / $3,022,802 - the "cost" to me last year would have been the roster spot plus his salary figure of $2,190,436 would still count against my cap.

Note this would ONLY be allowed until a player "starts the clock" by playing in a regular-season game. Once you "bring him over" so to speak, the clock starts and you can't stop it. (In other words, you can only push the contract back if the player shows as "Rookie" last year and doesn't get in a game so he shows "Rookie" again this year. If he shows any other amount of years of service, it can't be used).

To prevent teams from tanking by stashing a ton of good players on IR, we would probably need to stipulate some restrictions, such as a team can only do this with one first-round pick at a time and that player's "current" color must be yellow, orange, or red. To encourage use of second-round picks, perhaps we allow teams to stash as many 2nd-round picks as they like in this manner (subject to color restrictions).

In this case, the player would go through another TC (or more) before their contract started, allowing "free trainings" at the cost of one year of age (but not one year of contract).

This is NOT something I considered a fully thought out proposal, just intended to spark discussion (and comparison to 42's idea).

[42PhD]

I think is this also a good idea. It's more restricted in who can do it, but not as restricted in how many times you can do it.

I'll think on this some more, maybe set up a small comparison.

Like Wig implied, a third idea may be best.

[NOLa.]

I would like that idea more if the 1st round rookie srash stipulation was, inatead of current yellow or below, his future color is yellow or below.

Also, just an idea but the player must be "registered" as a full-season IR in a thread before preseason starts (after training camp) so we can keep better track of who is being stashed. That way we arent studying every DC thread to see if so-and-so did in fact sit. To make this simple, and may not be the best idea, but can't you add injuries to a player in league editor? You can a decription like "Stash" and out for however many days to make sure there is no way said player can actually play.

Just some thoughts because I liked 42s original idea and Wigs idea as well. Adds a new dynamic to grow players.

Sent via Morse code

[42PhD]

What I see here is general support for something "over here," so I am trying to point to the basic punchline and intent, plus the tickle spots.

I think what people want is a pretty simple way to increase value of less valuable players in a fair, quasi-real, relatively easy to manage and easy to understand way. The driving case is second rounders, but maybe it applies to more. It also allows GM's the option to be creative, to "GM," to cultivate assets (e.g. Magic can convert more people to points more quickly).

1) How many players get stashed? 1? More? As many as possible?

2) Who is eligible? Only rookies? Re-stash? Colors matter?

3) Contract? Spend a year or "slide?"

4) Timing. When do you declare and when can you de-stash?

5) Additional benefits? I proposed a "rookie training" if camp did not bless them. Wig proposed letting camp do as it will.

6) Logistics. Is this to be a League role? Combined with another, e.g. RFA.

7) Permanence. Can you destash a guy if you need to, e.g. playoffs and lose the benefit, or is he gone gone gone?

To me, the simplest thing is just go off of color to determine eligibility, but there is logic behind other ways. Potential should be a factor, but maybe not the only one. Re-stashing makes managing easier. I do like the idea of the contract slide Wig proposed. I also like the idea of a little bump if camp doesn't help you too much, as that is a bit of an incentive to do it, since a bad camp doesn't kill you. I can go either way on numbers but maybe... As many as you want, but only one non-minimum deal per team?

I honestly don't see too many teams doing this given the possible tax implications... A few tens of players, maybe, not like 100.

The transaction page will easily tell who came off IR at any point, so no need to comb DC's. One of Wig's pro-tips, maybe.

[Inner_GI]

My 2 cents for what they are worth:

1) How many players get stashed? 1? More? As many as possible?

- I'd say unlimited. A team can stash as many players as they want.

2) Who is eligible? Only rookies? Re-stash? Colors matter?

- Anyone still on a rookie contract should be eligible. I would want to avoid seeing a few 30 year old players getting stashed.
- Players with Green Potential (Only if current is orange)
-Any player with Yellow or bellow potential

3) Contract? Spend a year or "slide?"

- If we are trying be semi-realistic, shouldn't the salary be spent? Are we assuming the player is working for free? Though, I do see the reasoning for letting a year slide, but it just sounds like more work on the inputters.

4) Timing. When do you declare and when can you de-stash?

- Must be declared before Training Camp.
- If Training Camp makes that player ineligible to be stashed, congratulation, the TC Gods blessed you. Maybe this is after TC, but I'm not sure I like it after.

5) Additional benefits? I proposed a "rookie training" if camp did not bless them. Wig proposed letting camp do as it will.

- Something like rookie training. I don't think we should value being stashed (overseas) at the same level as 30 MPG in the NBA, so some numbers to work out here.

6) Logistics. Is this to be a League role? Combined with another, e.g. RFA.

- League Role. Hopefully minimal effort by way of game input.

7) Permanence. Can you destash a guy if you need to, e.g. playoffs and lose the benefit, or is he gone gone gone?

- Can be called up anytime before final sim of season, but cannot be re-stashed during the season. I would like to say once called up, you can't re-stash again, but seems off.


Overall the idea is interesting. I'd like to see more average quality players in the league, and give GMs more creative power in fielding a team.

[42PhD]

Regarding the salary slide, the way Wig proposes it . . . perpetual rookiedom until you get called up . . . is kind of like drafting an overseas guy whose rights you keep but you never sign. You simply use the current contract as an accounting tool, create a "cost" for doing it. Then, when you call the guy up, he gets the appropriate contract at that time.

So, if you want verisimilitude, to use Wig's word, that is the way to think of it. My proposal is more of a "D-League" inspired concept. Either way is fine, so is both or neither, but I did want to toss that out. Chiefly we want something helpful, easy, and interesting, but it very much should "fit" with what we do here and not just "work on paper", I agree.

[Inner_GI]

Regarding the salary slide, the way Wig proposes it . . . perpetual rookiedom until you get called up . . . is kind of like drafting an overseas guy whose rights you keep but you never sign. You simply use the current contract as an accounting tool, create a "cost" for doing it. Then, when you call the guy up, he gets the appropriate contract at that time.

So, if you want verisimilitude, to use Wig's word, that is the way to think of it. My proposal is more of a "D-League" inspired concept. Either way is fine, so is both or neither, but I did want to toss that out. Chiefly we want something helpful, easy, and interesting, but it very much should "fit" with what we do here and not just "work on paper", I agree.

That totally makes sense. Then maybe I'd want to put a limit on years in stash. Like, "a player can spend 3 years stashed."

[42PhD]

i can see the logic in limiting it, but I also see some self-limiting things there. Age, GM impatience, TC is not kind, already up to Y/Y or something. A few people have brought up the "colors" on this, and perhaps that in itself is the best way to manage things since the goal is more role players, adding value to picks. Age, and years of service rarely come up (right or wrong).

It's tweakable as we go. For ease of management, I'd say put no limits on to start or make it 1. Then, as people see how it works, we can cap it or loosen it, whatever is easiest.

It really depends on things we do not know, like how much it'll be used, how much PITA it is, etc. Given what we are talking about, I'm not sure how much damage someone abusing this system could do, but it may be the case that you need to somehow not let certain teams to do it as an anti-tanking measure?

1 slot no matter what, plus 1 for every 0.500 season in the past 3?

Limiting the slots will also help to limit the times a player is stashed.