S14 Sim 8 (2/16-2/29 Results)

[WigNosy]

http://pbsl.ijbl.net

Trade deadline passed this sim - it's now into the home stretch of the season!

[42PhD]

At what point do the DC's start getting input properly?

[WigNosy]

At what point do the DC's start getting input properly?

This was your most recent entry in the DC thread:

Cavaliers:

C: Shawn Bradley (C) - 40
PF: Alvin Jones (C/PF) - 10
SF: Latrell Sprewell (SF/SG/PG) - 42
SG: Allen Iverson (SG/PG) - 42
PG: Carlos Arroyo (SG/PG) – 22
6th: Michael Redd (SF/SG) - 42
7th: Antoine Walker (PF/SF) - 42
8th: James Jones (SF/SG) - 0
9th: Loren Woods (C) – 0
10th: Dalibor Bagnaric (C) – 0


IR: (any injuries or players over the max of 13 active)
1 –
2 –

Key Players: (can utilize all 3, some, or none of the slots)
1 – Latrell Sprewell
2 – Allen Iverson
3 – Shawn Bradley

Offensive Gameplan
Pace: 7
Motion: 3
3 Pt Usage: 10
Focus: Inside
Crash Boards: 7

Defensive Gameplan
Primary Defense: Help
Usage: 10
Secondary Defense: Man
Usage: 5
Full Court Press: 7
Crash Boards: 7

I have attached screenshots of the DC and Gameplan that were input for the Cavaliers... I just double-checked them myself and it looks the to me like what you entered in the DC thread matches what was used for the sim. If I made an error, please let me know where and I will make sure it is correct it next time.

[42PhD]

Here is what the game says: Center - Shawn Bradley - 7-6 - 305 lbs. Power Forward - Alvin Jones - 6-11 - 271 lbs. Small Forward - Latrell Sprewell - 6-5 - 226 lbs. Shooting Guard - Carlos Arroyo - 6-2 - 206 lbs. Point Guard - Allen Iverson - 6-0 - 181 lbs.

Both show Arroyo as SG when I said PG for the past few Sims, and the change was bolded, underlined, highlighted.

The Knicks has issues, too. Once is an accident. Twice is hmmm...

I wonder if we'll find 3? That'd be something else entirely.

I guess we all have to double check out DC's every sim. Will we all get League Responsibility points?

[WigNosy]

Here is what the game says: Center - Shawn Bradley - 7-6 - 305 lbs. Power Forward - Alvin Jones - 6-11 - 271 lbs. Small Forward - Latrell Sprewell - 6-5 - 226 lbs. Shooting Guard - Carlos Arroyo - 6-2 - 206 lbs. Point Guard - Allen Iverson - 6-0 - 181 lbs.

Both show Arroyo as SG when I said PG for the past few Sims, and the change was bolded, underlined, highlighted.

The Knicks has issues, too. Once is an accident. Twice is hmmm...

I wonder if we'll find 3? That'd be something else entirely.

I guess we all have to double check out DC's every sim. Will we all get League Responsibility points?

As you can see from the screenshots above, AI was listed as your starting SG in the Depth Chart entry area of the game, which is where we enter lineups. We can't control what the game decides to do during the sim itself in any other way.

I would suggest removing "PG" from AI's allowed list of positions are removing "SG" from Arroyo's allowed list of positions. Perhaps that will put them where you intend them to go.

[42PhD]

So what do the starters mean if not starters? Sounds like tap dancing to me.

[Inner_GI]

Speaking as a previous AI owner. If you lost two positions he always goes pg. Used to piss me off and I've learned to not list multiple positions for players that have a specific role on my team.

You listing two positions means the game will decide where he plays those minutes. A dc isn't exact.

[42PhD]

Not buying it. This explains the Knicks how?

[NickMalone77]

4-2 a home....Moved up to 5th. Not bad. Gotta keep gaining.

[WigNosy]

Not buying it. This explains the Knicks how?

Not sure what you're asking about with regard to the Knicks, but in the interest of full transparency:

We received a DC in Sim 4 from the Knicks as follows (see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1586&p=15019#p15019 )

All new.

C: Yao Ming - 35
PF: Popeye Jones - 24
SF: Carmelo Anthony - 35
SG: Howard Eisley - 36
PG: Eric snow - 36
6th: Tony Delk - 24
7th: Steve Smith - 10
8th: Michael Ruffin - 5
9th: Derek strong - 5
10th: Rodney white - 0

Key options:
1.Yao Ming
2.Melo
3.howard eisley


offense:
Pace:6
Motion: 3
3-point usage: 10
Focus: Outside
Crash boards: 10

Defense:
Primary d: Man
Usage: 7
Secondary d: Help
Usage: 3
Full court press: 6

Following that DC submission, the Knicks...

* Acquired Terrell Brandon, Darius Miles, and Samuel Dalembert (who was on the inactive list when traded to the Knicks) in a trade for Tony Delk

* Traded away Michael Ruffin was for Melvin Ely (on the inactive list when traded to the Knicks) and Jennero Pargo

The only "change" instructions received relative to the Sim 4 DC were;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1602&p=15083#p15083

I'd like that dc, but with 18 minutes for Brandon as my 6th, and 18 for smith as 7th. I'll try to post up the whole dc again in a bit, rushing out of this hotel right now tho.

There were never any Depth Chart instructions for the use of Miles, Pargo, Dalembert, or Ely (so Dalembert and Ely remained on the inactive list).

There have been no changes to the DC requested since that point (i.e., "same").

The above means that the Knicks' Depth Chart should look as follows:

C: Yao Ming - 35
PF: Popeye Jones - 24
SF: Carmelo Anthony - 35
SG: Howard Eisley - 36
PG: Eric snow - 36
6th: Terrell Brandon - 18 ("18 minutes for Brandon as my 6th,")
7th: Steve Smith - 18 ("and 18 for Smith as 7th")
8th: Derek strong - 5 (moved up to 8th following trade of Michael Ruffin)
9th: ??
10th: Rodney white - 0
11th: ??

Key options:
1.Yao Ming
2.Melo
3.howard eisley


offense:
Pace:6
Motion: 3
3-point usage: 10
Focus: Outside
Crash boards: 10

Defense:
Primary d: Man
Usage: 7
Secondary d: Help
Usage: 3
Full court press: 6
(Note: No Entry for Defensive Crash Boards)

With no directon on how to use Miles and Pargo, they were simply allowed to fall into the lineup whereever the computer happened to slot them after Derek Strong (who had minutes assigned to him) in the 8th spot.

You can see the screenshots below of what was used for them this sim... which is exactly as requested (at least, for the requests we have - as I mentioned, there has been no mention of where the Knicks wanted to play Miles and Pargo but they are at the end of the bench and obviously not interfering with the rotation he did set).

[WigNosy]

Once we set the DC's, it is out of our hands. If you have issues with the way the game interprets the DC's, you'll have to direct them to the game's programmer.

(His website is http://ww.fbbgames.com and his nickname is heavyreign but he doesn't respond to forum posts very often.)

We're doing the best we can with what we've got.

[Inner_GI]

Not buying it. This explains the Knicks how?

No need to buy it. It's free advice. Fix your shitty dc or don't. Don't like how the game treated your dc? Make a change its what every GM does. No one really knows what the heck goes on, but experience helps.

[42PhD]

Not buying it. This explains the Knicks how?

No need to buy it. It's free advice. Fix your shitty dc or don't. Don't like how the game treated your dc? Make a change its what every GM does. No one really knows what the heck goes on, but experience helps.

Correlation v causation. It's a fallacy. Your explanation, taken on its face, is that AI will be a PG if "allowed." Fine.

How does that explain issues with players that are not AI and are not bumped by AI?

I am asking a logical question about game outcomes across more than one team, you attack the DC of one. It's not an adequate explanation.

[Inner_GI]

Not buying it. This explains the Knicks how?

No need to buy it. It's free advice. Fix your shitty dc or don't. Don't like how the game treated your dc? Make a change its what every GM does. No one really knows what the heck goes on, but experience helps.

Correlation v causation. It's a fallacy. Your explanation, taken on its face, is that AI will be a PG if "allowed." Fine.

How does that explain issues with players that are not AI and are not bumped by AI?

I am asking a logical question about game outcomes across more than one team, you attack the DC of one. It's not an adequate explanation.

How do you explain the DC in the game looking exactly like the one you typed and submitted. Stop blaming others for your failures.

[42PhD]

From the sticky explaining the game operation: "The depth chart allows you to set your starters as well as the order players should be used off of the bench."

The Knicks set Eisley to be a starter over Delk before trading Delk. Delk still started.

How are these logically consistent?

[42PhD]

No need to buy it. It's free advice. Fix your shitty dc or don't. Don't like how the game treated your dc? Make a change its what every GM does. No one really knows what the heck goes on, but experience helps.

Correlation v causation. It's a fallacy. Your explanation, taken on its face, is that AI will be a PG if "allowed." Fine.

How does that explain issues with players that are not AI and are not bumped by AI?

I am asking a logical question about game outcomes across more than one team, you attack the DC of one. It's not an adequate explanation.

How do you explain the DC in the game looking exactly like the one you typed and submitted. Stop blaming others for your failures.

I know what was shown, not what was input.

The issue is not if I am an idiot or horrible game planner or a failure. The issue is are our DC's actually affecting the game in the way we are led to believe.

If you actually believe your comment, then the computer sucks, not me. Right?

[Inner_GI]

From the sticky explaining the game operation: "The depth chart allows you to set your starters as well as the order players should be used off of the bench."

The Knicks set Eisley to be a starter over Delk before trading Delk. Delk still started.

How are these logically consistent?

I have a feeling you are looking at the wrong sim. KNicks moved Delk to bench in the 4th sim which by the time it was simmed, Delk was traded away.

[42PhD]

From the sticky explaining the game operation: "The depth chart allows you to set your starters as well as the order players should be used off of the bench."

The Knicks set Eisley to be a starter over Delk before trading Delk. Delk still started.

How are these logically consistent?

I have a feeling you are looking at the wrong sim. KNicks moved Delk to bench in the 4th sim which by the time it was simmed, Delk was traded away.

Nope.

[42PhD]

Knicks thing:

Going into Sim 4 (12/16 - 12/31, here was the DC snippet:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1586&start=25#p15019


C: Yao Ming - 35
PF: Popeye Jones - 24
SF: Carmelo Anthony - 35
SG: Howard Eisley - 36
PG: Eric snow - 36
6th: Tony Delk - 24
7th: Steve Smith - 10
8th: Michael Ruffin - 5
9th: Derek strong - 5
10th: Rodney white - 0

Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:27 pm


And here was the starting lineup from 12/16:

Center - Yao Ming - 7-6 - 312 lbs.
Power Forward - Popeye Jones - 6-8 - 259 lbs.
Small Forward - Carmelo Anthony - 6-8 - 232 lbs.
Shooting Guard - Tony Delk - 6-2 - 197 lbs.
Point Guard - Eric Snow - 6-3 - 211 lbs.

http://pbsl.ijbl.net/pbp/?id=57-2

It's consistent for the entire sim, of course, and Delk clearly played, so he clearly was not traded until after that sim.

Again, these are just objective facts, which are always the most infuriating kind, I know.

Then the trade happened. The Knicks specified their DC only as a what should change, so Eisley still did not start:

Everything same, but +6 minutes to Steve smith and 18 minutes for Terrell Brandon.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1602&start=25#p15083

Later, Snug pointed this out in the DC:

Just wanted to point out that my new depth chart from sim 4 was never fully inputted. I only know this because I've had eisley as a starter since, yet he hasn't started a single game for me. Although the key options and everything else seems right. I'd like that dc, but with 18 minutes for Brandon as my 6th, and 18 for smith as 7th. I'll try to post up the whole dc again in a bit, rushing out of this hotel right now tho.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1612#p15253

Since then there has been 13 Knicks games.

http://pbsl.ijbl.net/rosters/roster23.htm

Here, you can see Eisley only has 13 starts.

So, either the computer, with all its mystical powers, immediately decided that Eisley should be a starter right when Snug pointed this out and game instructions relative to the same depth chart used when Delk was considered a starter that was carried forward after the Delk trade . . . or it wasn't input correctly.

So, do we still want to adhere to the claim that DC's are being input 100% correctly?

[Inner_GI]

So, do we still want to adhere to the claim that DC's are being input 100% correctly?

I think you just have had a vendetta for Wig since you joined this league. Nothing new here. Still haven't proved how your DC was inputted incorrectly like you say.

[42PhD]

Against WIG?

I never met him, have no idea who inputs what, and have worked successful trades with him twice, one that took an entire season to do (Sprewell).

If you or anyone mistake a heel persona by a fake owner in a fake league for a real issue, then I apologize for my masterful work. Wrestling is scripted and Joey doesn't live with Chandler, either. And I'm Fryeing awesome.

I've publicly congratulated WIG for being the first repeat repeat champion and complimented his work. As an owner, I do what it takes to win, and trying like hell to keep people from helping him is essentially the ultimate compliment, at least to this team, as I can do nothing directly to stop him other than a random defeat of the Hawks here and there or hoarding assets to keep him (and other contenders) from getting them (I refused to trade with the Spurs on that basis this past deadline).

This is a game, and I'm trying to win.

When the moves I make are per instructions but don't yield the claimed results, and it's happened before, I speak up.

Ignore me all you like, I don't take it personally. It's a game, one I've taken great interest in. That said, I'm trying learn the <expletive deleted>, and if I've been told the wrong rules or the moves I make aren't being actually made, then my enjoyment is <expletive deleted> with FAR MORE than getting a few losses.

None of this is personal. None. It's can't be.

I'm providing objective facts here. These are unambiguous and public. What's being offered back to me? Basically, "Oh well. Learn to play." Well, I've been trying for 2.5 seasons, but when the instructions are wrong and DC's aren't input correctly . . .

[Inner_GI]

You act like everyone here has all the answers. The game does weird things all the time, and as a previous AI owner I can tell you having multiple positions listed for him used to drive me bonkers. I recommended you play him at the position you want.

Wig showed you the DC in game. If you choose not to believe that, then that is on you, but no one else has had any issues with the inputters we have in the league, and if there was ever a mistake they've owned up to it. I don't think a mistake was made here, you are just reacting very poorly to the whole situation.

[42PhD]

Also, I can't prove it wasn't input correctly. No one can. Just like no one can prove it was input correctly. The appeal to "computer says no" or "write the programmer" is fine, but then change the instructions. Make it clear that we don't ACTUALLY set the starters, at least in terms of their ROLES, which is in no way clear.

If I've discovered something no one else has ever noticed, well then I'm breaking a little ground. If that was known by some, then it was hidden. If it was known by most, then I'd like to hear the testimony. To be clear, I'm taking about "We don't ACTUALLY set the starters, at least in terms of their ROLES."

So, which is it?

[42PhD]

You act like everyone here has all the answers. The game does weird things all the time, and as a previous AI owner I can tell you having multiple positions listed for him used to drive me bonkers. I recommended you play him at the position you want.

Wig showed you the DC in game. If you choose not to believe that, then that is on you, but no one else has had any issues with the inputters we have in the league, and if there was ever a mistake they've owned up to it. I don't think a mistake was made here, you are just reacting very poorly to the whole situation.

I've detailed 2 situations, and neither was really addressed. I see DC's that show my current record, not one at the time.

Should I try to find more? Maybe, but I want the Knicks situation explained before I pour more effort into this.

Snug mentioned this, and the situation changed, but I saw no owning up.

Of course, I would not expect Snug's claim in his DC's to be paid more heed that his DC's themselves ifthe DC's aren't being read carefully. When his original DC's were not input correctly, no one really took notice, Snug included. We trust that these things will be handled carefully. Accidents happen.

But then this seems to be happening elsewhere. So, accident?

My protests in the results thread were read . . . because results are the focus?

Inputting DC's with subtle and seemingly accidental errors, to the suspicuous mind, are a perfect way to manipulate outcomes, thin the herd and make GM's look worse than they are, or, even worse, have GM's learn a system or react to results seemingly due to DC changes that are unreleated.

The Knicks traded Delk after good results from moving him to the bench with fewer minutes . . . but that's not what happened, and how he's without Delk. Maybe that's for the best, maybe it'd be done anyway, and maybe he is a horrible GM, but when he is fed bad info from a supposedly trustworthy source, that's not on him.

Again, you are waaay off topic here. I'm pointing to facts, you are pointing to other things.

I'll change the DC, and I have NO DOUBT the next one will be according to my input. NONE.

[TheSyndicate]

Yeah. For what it's worth, they've missed my DC once before a few seasons ago. I asked about it and it was owned and apologized for.

The above situations look like the inputters didn't MISS something but the game in fact was doing its thing.

Just my two cents. Also - I know many of these guys personally, and misleading a new GM is the last thing they'd want to do. We're all learning about the game together, and no one is more supportive of the new guys getting good than the folks that input the DC's.

I guarantee if you were in the playoffs against a more established team, the folks inputting would be rooting for you, but rooting or not, they'd do it accurately.