Creation draft or stay the same?

[BigDaddyd8720]

Good morning all you beautiful people,

I wanted to create this thread so we can open up the discussion about a creation draft. We will use this post to explain what the process of the creation draft will look like, as well as give you an opportunity to voice your opinion. So with that, here are some things Doug and I talked about when going over the possibility of a creation draft:

1. If we do a creation draft, then we will give GMs the opportunity to relinquish their teams and takeover another available team. We will give everyone a certain amount of time and then once the deadline passes, you will either keep control of your current team or become a free agent GM. After we figure out which teams are available and which GMs need new teams, will allow those GMs to claim their new team FFA style. If we keep everything as is, then we can just start planning out the beginning of the offseason

2. Once we have figured out where all current GMs stand with their teams, we will then discuss either filling up the remaining open teams with new people or cutting the league size down (which may be beneficial at the moment with potentially starting further in the past when there were historically only 23-25 teams).

3. Once we have all team vacancies filled, we can then start the draft process


With a creation draft, there are a lot of things to consider:

1. With a creation draft, that will mean this will be an entirely new league. All previous records, stats, and players will be wiped away and we will start completely over. We can/will archive the league on the forums, as well in the index similar to how we do now so that you can still go back and see your previous league's coaching record/team/etc. So if you want to keep your current team, you won't want to do a creation draft. The benefit of a creation draft though is that it will also allow for a balance of power. Teams at the bottom can compete sooner and teams at the top won't be dominating like they have been. Everyone would start on the same page, with a blank slate to build the kind of roster you want to build with real, historical players (more on that later). So keep that in mind when voting

2. We will need to decide on what year we would like to start the creation draft. Depending on the start year will determine how the game is played. So if we start in 1980, the historical modifiers will be set to 1980 "standards of play" aka 3 point shooting was not as prominent as it is now. Back then, it was mainly about physicality and getting to the basket, with some exceptions (Larry Bird). So you will need to consider this when building your roster and submitting DCs. Your game plan will look much different than it has in recent years. Additionally, players in the game will be modeled after players in the real world. This includes future rookie drafts for players like Sam Bowie, Scottie Pippen, and a guy named Michael Jordan... and even eventually the Shaqs, Tim Duncans, Kobes, Lebrons, etc. You get to play AND PLAN your team with the full expectation of the types of players to come in future years.

3. We will need to decide the draft process. This one is simple, how long do we want the draft to go? It will take 15 rounds to fill out an entire roster. So do we want to do all 15 rounds or do we want to stop at a certain point and just sim the rest of the way. Doug and I looked into it and it looks like around round 8 and 9, the talent becomes nothing but 1/1 (red/red) players. So we could do 8-9 rounds of drafting and then sim the rest to fill rosters. Or just draft all 15 rounds if that's what you vote on. Another thing to keep in mind here is how many teams do we have? If we try to have 26 teams in a 1980 league, the talent pool will be a little shallower than if we do a creation draft with a historically accurate number of teams for 1980 (23).

4. Your cap space will look wildly different depending on the start year. Right now we're at around $310mil in cap space. If we go back to 1980, that cap drops to $1.9mil. So be sure to also keep that in mind when looking at contracts. With a creation draft, your 1st round pick will get a 4 year contract. Your 2nd & 3rd round picks will get 3-yr contracts. 4th-9th Round picks will get 2 year contracts. 10th round and beyond are 1yr deals.

5. When doing the creation draft, All players will be available. So there will be rookies, as well as 10+ year vets, to choose from. The full NBA roster of players will be available for picking in a creation draft. Following years will have rookie drafts like we have done in past seasons. As a result, RFA will not be necessary until the 6th off-season of the league (when the 1st rookie draft class is coming off their rookie deals).

So these are the basics of a creation draft. If you have any questions or suggestions, please post them here and either Doug or I will answer them for you.

[greepleairport]

how do we make sure doug loses?

[greepleairport]

sharing in a suggestion / comments / concerns thread

I purposely filled out the form like a jack ass because it wasn't ADA Accessible.
My team did not exist in 1980.
I don't necessarily want to vote either way, but if we go with creation, the options for me to move forward are not clear.
No big deal.
I'm just self identifying as someone who might have a different experience if we follow through with this.
Not sure if I'm alone or not.

[greepleairport]

@Mike Lowry with your team not existing yet, I think you will participate in a team free for all. in other words, you might not get the heat, but you WILL get a team as an active GM. if the team matters, though, i think that's worthy of further discussion than getting tossed into a free for all against your wishes

[WigNosy]

One issue we observed in the past was “tanking for stars” - e.g., people built their teams to suck and started shipping off players for spare parts a year or two before the “LeBron” draft (2003). There will be a similar powerful incentive to tank for specific years (1984 anyone?) here without mitigating controls.

Should we consider “random debut” in FBB whereby historical players make their debut randomly (e.g., 1984 might be headlined by Shawn Marion, Mike Dunleavy Sr. and Bob Cousy, while Jordan doesn’t appear until 1993)?

I have advocated in the past for a “you’re the worst” draft (see https://slate.com/culture/2015/05/nba-d ... nking.html ) in which no team is allowed to hold their own future draft pick as an absolute bar against tanking. Would something like this be considered? (I know in the past people have called this complicated without actually trying it, but once you actually do it even just once, it becomes easy and intuitive).

[WigNosy]

Also, will initial player contracts be randomized or slotted by creation draft selection?

[AngryBanana]

Also, will initial player contracts be randomized or slotted by creation draft selection?

Are you back?


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[greepleairport]

old pbsl heads be like

[IamQuailman]

Also, will initial player contracts be randomized or slotted by creation draft selection?

I believe when we ran a test creation draft, it was slotted by creation draft selection.

[logpmess]

One issue we observed in the past was “tanking for stars” - e.g., people built their teams to suck and started shipping off players for spare parts a year or two before the “LeBron” draft (2003). There will be a similar powerful incentive to tank for specific years (1984 anyone?) here without mitigating controls.

Should we consider “random debut” in FBB whereby historical players make their debut randomly (e.g., 1984 might be headlined by Shawn Marion, Mike Dunleavy Sr. and Bob Cousy, while Jordan doesn’t appear until 1993)?

I have advocated in the past for a “you’re the worst” draft (see https://slate.com/culture/2015/05/nba-d ... nking.html ) in which no team is allowed to hold their own future draft pick as an absolute bar against tanking. Would something like this be considered? (I know in the past people have called this complicated without actually trying it, but once you actually do it even just once, it becomes easy and intuitive).

I may not be a good candidate for this discussion as I got Lebron, but I don't see moving pieces away to be as big of a deal. With the lottery (which I think we should institute from day 1), a team can tank for a higher chance but its not guaranteed. The bigger issue I remember is people keeping a really good team and trying to gameplan losses (not starting the best players, only playing best players 15 minutes per game).

I will also add that I was below .500 for three straight years. I shipped off my best player Gary Payton at 34 years old two years before Lebron. Also, I was slotted to pick 9 in 2003, but won the lottery. So theoretically, it worked as intended.

[WigNosy]

Also, will initial player contracts be randomized or slotted by creation draft selection?

Are you back?


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I am waiting to see the current voting results (and team openings) before committing one way or another.

Perhaps instead of “I’m back” … I’m lurking.

[JNR]

I don’t think the tanking was that big of a deal because the only teams that decided to tank were already out of contention. No one was abandoning a good team for a chance at LeBron.

[Mike Lowry]

@Mike Lowry with your team not existing yet, I think you will participate in a team free for all. in other words, you might not get the heat, but you WILL get a team as an active GM. if the team matters, though, i think that's worthy of further discussion than getting tossed into a free for all against your wishes

I REALLY DON'T give a shit either way.
I'm not married to being Miami.
The form just really did not take that into account, and the questions, that didn't exactly speak to my situation, were required to answer.
I would certainly like, and expect a team.

[Xist2Inspire]

Voted. I chose "Relinquish" only because I'd like to see which teams end up available before committing to the Bullets/Wizards again.

[AngryBanana]

I am split on this. I like the idea of random debut because it still preserves the idea of not knowing what was to come, similar to what we have now with the fake players. So you don’t have the option of trying to gain the system by tanking. I know some people have said that we have the lotto and also can’t guarantee a top pick, but I think people can still work the system. Where the randomizer brings some more intrigue to the game. Having to wait until the list is released to see who the top players will be.

However the cons is that you don’t know. So you can run into a system where LeBron and MJ may be a year apart, then we have five to eight years of shit players behind them. So that also wouldn’t be ideal too I would think.


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[Xist2Inspire]

Given the variation on how players develop and ultimately turn out, let alone the impact of modifiers, I don't think tanking is a problem. Even if you do, there's no guarantee that the guy you actually get will be the guy you're expecting to get. MJ flamed out in our current league's history. Kobe was just kinda there. AD was far more dominant than LeBron.

A fair amount of the GMs who will be involved in this already know from firsthand experience that nothing's a given, even if it's a name you know. So if anything, it adds another layer of strategy when planning out builds and competing windows. Do you structure your build to naturally burn out around the same time as '84 or '96? Or do you make sure your team's peaking at the times you know everyone else is at least considering throwing in the towel for Shaq or LeBron?

[Eazy P]

Given the variation on how players develop and ultimately turn out, let alone the impact of modifiers, I don't think tanking is a problem. Even if you do, there's no guarantee that the guy you actually get will be the guy you're expecting to get. MJ flamed out in our current league's history. Kobe was just kinda there. AD was far more dominant than LeBron.

A fair amount of the GMs who will be involved in this already know from firsthand experience that nothing's a given, even if it's a name you know. So if anything, it adds another layer of strategy when planning out builds and competing windows. Do you structure your build to naturally burn out around the same time as '84 or '96? Or do you make sure your team's peaking at the times you know everyone else is at least considering throwing in the towel for Shaq or LeBron?

The reason players flamed out was cause there wasn't any TC insurance to save players and the game was still kinda new at the time.

At least that's what I think.

GMs now are more seasoned, with a second shot at getting those players things will be different than the 1st time around.

[Eazy P]

I am split on this. I like the idea of random debut because it still preserves the idea of not knowing what was to come, similar to what we have now with the fake players. So you don’t have the option of trying to gain the system by tanking. I know some people have said that we have the lotto and also can’t guarantee a top pick, but I think people can still work the system. Where the randomizer brings some more intrigue to the game. Having to wait until the list is released to see who the top players will be.

However the cons is that you don’t know. So you can run into a system where LeBron and MJ may be a year apart, then we have five to eight years of shit players behind them. So that also wouldn’t be ideal too I would think.


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I kinda like the idea of random draft. Instead of fake players it would be real players. Past present and future. For example the 1984 draft could have the real Pistol Pete and not a renamed fake. We could draft Wilt too, whereas if we go with the real historical draft Wilt would not ever be available. People could still tank but will be tanking without knowing who's available for said year.

[AngryBanana]

Another thought on randomize that could be either good or bad would be how the games are played. As Doug mentioned, if we went to 1980 the gameplans would be wildly different based on style of play. Where I wonder if guys like Moses Malone and Patrick Ewing would still be as good players if the emphasis wasn’t fit to their style of play? Then conversely if Steph Curry is in the second draft ever, how would that change his ability. Would he still be considered an all time great shooter? Would he even shoot that much given the team or period in which he was playing? It presents things that I think are both intriguing but also an additional wrinkle that could make it harder and/or more complicated in building a team.


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[Xist2Inspire]

I guess my reasoning is, if we're going to go through the trouble of a reset and creation draft just to randomize the players anyway...why can't we just start using randomized historical draft files now? Let's be honest, the historical aspect is the main draw here, and the main reason why we're even debating what year to go back to. So to do randomized drafts (even with the honestly very cool and intriguing) historical era modifier factor) soley as a tanking deterrent, kinda defeats the whole point.

Even the training and experience factor aspect isn't that big of a factor, because there's no guarantee that every big name player will end up with a GM willing to invest in him, or that he won't take a dive post-age 26, or that a broken leg won't just kill him outright. In the same vein, we'll probably see GMs invest in players who aren't quite big name stars, either to capitalize on unexpected boosts or simply because they like them. Not everybody's favorite players are superstars, and not every player that a GM likes will be worth tanking for.

This isn't an "if you do it this way, I'm out" thing for me, I'm just trying to get the logic behind it. I could see it possibly being a turn-off to some, who would've been on board otherwise.

[IamQuailman]

I really am liking the conversation going on here.

Seems that there is some traction in a conversation in REAL HISTORICAL DRAFTS vs RANDOM INSERTION DRAFTS... to my surprise mind you. Didn't even expect people wanting to do that. I thought the allure of playing a reboot was having historical classes be in tact, as opposed to a mishmash of players thrown together not knowing whats coming next.

I'm personally learning historical draft because i really enjoyed watching Sim League "history" run in tandem with the timeline it branched off of (in the case of this league, 1990 start)... where we had dudes like Steven Hunter who did nothing IRL because mega stars here. Always thought that was kinda fun.

As for tanking, I think it's not really as big of a problem as it was when this league began. So I'm less worried about that driving people... not to mention enforcing any ANTI-TANKING policies is really difficult to put into practice.

[IamQuailman]

I guess my reasoning is, if we're going to go through the trouble of a reset and creation draft just to randomize the players anyway...why can't we just start using randomized historical draft files now? Let's be honest, the historical aspect is the main draw here, and the main reason why we're even debating what year to go back to. So to do randomized drafts (even with the honestly very cool and intriguing) historical era modifier factor) soley as a tanking deterrent, kinda defeats the whole point.

Even the training and experience factor aspect isn't that big of a factor, because there's no guarantee that every big name player will end up with a GM willing to invest in him, or that he won't take a dive post-age 26, or that a broken leg won't just kill him outright. In the same vein, we'll probably see GMs invest in players who aren't quite big name stars, either to capitalize on unexpected boosts or simply because they like them. Not everybody's favorite players are superstars, and not every player that a GM likes will be worth tanking for.

This isn't an "if you do it this way, I'm out" thing for me, I'm just trying to get the logic behind it. I could see it possibly being a turn-off to some, who would've been on board otherwise.

I basically just posted the same thing as you in that the randomize thing is "cool, but why if we are trying to reboot"?

[IamQuailman]

ALSO worth noting...

There is no TRAINING CAMP after a creation draft. The team you draft is what they will be for the season. No nerfs, no boosts.

[RPF]

If we did reboot I'd want it as historically accurate as possible. That means divisions, cap, and players. Like Xist said having Steph in 1984 might Frye him up or having Ewing in 2022 just to end up soft like Embiid.

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[digiskunk]

how do we make sure doug loses?

we don't. doug is life