S70 Town Hall #8: "Rules Are Dumb"

[MexicanMamba]

Our commissioner intends on putting a mass rule change vote in effect in a few sims.

So, tell us your ideas for possible rule changes. This can either be a rule you want to add/subtract, or it can be your deeper thoughts on the pros/cons of other people's ideas.

Rules: 1 point if you give thoughtful answers which I will award after the timer ends for responses. The timer ends for responses at the moment the corresponding week's Sim is run.

Note: Use approximately 5 sentences as your bare minimum for 1 point. If you write 3 long, complex sentences, you'll still get a point. If you write 5 3 word sentences, you will not get a point. Don't @ me.

Due: Sim 8 deadline.

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[garbageman]

While I like the podcast idea of blind training (no looking at player pages) in theory, I think it would give the commissioner a huge advantage in practice. I don't want everyone to rely on looking at player pages all the time (even the commissioner), only when necessary, but it's necessary enough where the commissioner would have an advantage in training.

I am in favor of not training guys to purple (only as blue as they can go) because I think it stresses the importance of player evaluation instead of just having a bunch of guys just over the purple line where everyone knows how good they are (overall ratings wise) and it makes the trade market less interesting to me.

One thing that wasn't talked about that I think can be a training compromise is that we revisit the athletic training--at least the prices. I don't think you can take a 300 pound guy and make him a track star by his late 20s. Athletic trainings are so impactful on the overall rating that I can put 15 points into a guy's QKN right now and increase his overall current AND future rating by like 10. Hell, I might do that. You can put twice as many points into increasing an attribute rating and increase JUST the future rating by half that. If we don't want to get rid of athletic training completely, I think it needs much stricter limits, much higher costs, or both, since it raises both current and future values simultaneously and in an outsized way.



And one thing that's completely separate from training that I conceptually find really interesting...remove the 10 point limit in trades and go completely no limit.



Another idea that came to mind as I was writing this that I'm not going to flesh out here:

Contract based training / insurance costs: I don't think not allowing training on rookies really is a needle mover, but we could restructure training or insurance costs with an emphasis on rookie contract vs. 2nd contract (RFA) vs. UFA contract. It costs more to insure a really expensive car than a regular car. This could also make giving out outlandish contracts a little harder of a decision.

Anyway, that should be enough to get me a point.

[Black Superman]

First president election is this Thursday, so this question is very fitting this week. I personally as a GM, am excited for the potential results of the RFA ticket item. It is by far my least favorite thing to do as a Commissioner. The entire process sucks, and this is obvious because it is not a natural step in the software.

As for the things surrounding player training, I still disagree with most of it. A player working on an area of their game is a real thing in the NBA. And my stance has always been, to give as authentic of a league as possible. To do that, you must mimic certain aspects of the real NBA. Players go out during the summer, and they work on their game. Rather it be conditioning, inside/post moves, or their jump shot in the midrange and 3 point range. So why wouldn't we allow that crucial aspect of the league? That's when players get better, during the summer with a trainer. I wouldn't be against Purple training, but again. I'm not sure what we're solving for. It feels like people want the sim retro or "how it used to be" without giving a clear issue with training.

The league has 20 Future Purple potential players, of those 20 only 8 or 40% are currently purple/purple.

Screenshot_20240625-062610~2.png (155.22 KiB) Viewed 373 times

If we compare that to the NBA today, there are probably also 8 bonified currently purple/purple players(Luka,Jokic,Shai,Tatum,Steph,AD,Embiid,Giannis) and then we have probably the same amount of future purple guys. Wemby, Ja, Brown, Booker, Ant, Haliburton). I just don't understand what the issue is with the purple hate. We don't have a GM in the league that's unable to pay their luxury tax at the result of player training. Until we do, I don't think it's something that needs to be addressed as it's not something that's being abused.

Enjoy my presented facts, it's the most truthful information you're going to get in debates this week.

[greepleairport]

I've been on the opposite side of this debate for a long time, but I'm hearing the call for parity in a different way, and that way is killing insurance. Look, this would have slaughtered me this year, but is the chaos element such a bad thing? always?

I know this makes folks uneasy but I think changing some foundational aspects of sim league could really shake things up and change the way it's played, which is fun.

i'll echo the removal of 10pt limit in trades for similar reasons. chaos.

i still haven't listened to the entirety of blacksupe's and mamba's pod, so my mind isn't fully fleshed out on the changes yet, but I still feel strongly about those two things being considered.

[LazyTitanSmash]

I sent this to @Black Superman in an email, about the rule changes that could be helpful. Here's what I came up with.

First,

Get rid of training. There are a lot of reasons why we should, but the most important reason is that undermines the value of drafted players.




A Hard Cap
OR
A higher tax for three years of being in the tax.

The argument against a higher tax in year 3, is that dominant teams would have to give up their good players for too little. However, this would actually significantly help weaker teams and incentivize trading.



Combine Restricted Free Agency (RFA) into Unrestricted Free Agency (UFA).

This means eliminating RFA but not RFA rights. After UFA 1, the team with the RFA rights can exercise those rights. This would prevent me from weaponizing bidding in RFA and force me to negotiate for the player. It should keep the bids lower on RFA players. Lastly, it isn't painless for the RFA rights General Manager (GM) because exercising their RFA rights would almost certainly push them deep into the tax. After UFA 1 anyone still in free agency loses RFA rights.



This is my least favorite option, but it might work. Eliminating insurance.

It might seem like it would hurt weaker players who have high draft picks, but I think the randomness might help weaker players overall.
Any good game should try to balance skill and randomness. Increasing randomness will help level the playing field for less skilled players. Highly skilled players should always win more, but randomness allows everyone to have a chance. A game like chess has no randomness, so it becomes all about skill, and those with little skill have essentially no chance of beating a skilled player.

Limiting the number of points a player can earn or put effort into earning.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13648

Harsher penalties for being in tax jail (like no trading) No Kai Jones situations.


We can't implement all of these changes because we need points for engagement, and doing all of them would eliminate the need for points. That being said, I think garbageman was right when he said that the further we move away from the base game, the more it unravels.

[LazyTitanSmash]

We could also get rid of the 10 point max.

We could also get rid of just athletic training as a compromise position between the pro and anti training camps.

[drkavarga]

I think that teams that are in the tax by over the limit (teams over the limit but under the limit are exempt going by this) shouldn’t be able to make in-season trades especially teams over $100 million in the tax for one or more seasons in a row. Off-season yes to get back under the cap but in season as a punishment no trading. That’s how the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. End that loophole and let the chaos start up. That’s my suggestion to end the tax loopholes that are being used too frequently and make the salary cap more challenging to get around.

[MexicanMamba]

Playoff Teams to 8 in each conference.

Let's make the 1 seeds have a little risk in the first round again. Easy.

I see Titan mentioned it too, but I brought this up in the recent podcast as well, so I'll back it here: Combining RFA/UFA 1. It makes the task easier on the Commissioner (important for the sanity of the person running it) but also makes the idea of just randomly offering everyone a Max just to mess with people harder since it's blended with your 10 UFA Bids, so people will likely take them more seriously.

Not showing anyone player pages or only seeing player pages if a player is on your own team.

Capping training at 150 future rating so that purples only officially happen organically.

Also, I think I do like the idea of eliminating athletic training. It really is often the easiest way to stud-up your player. Let's only focus on training real skills.

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[pennpanther1]

I also like the idea of a 10-team lottery and 16 teams in the playoff. I think more teams are interested in competing so they will make a push for the playoffs, especially if one more spot is available.

I also think we should get rid of paying for renames in the non-lottery. If any names are going to work now then just let anyone rename whatever they want because I think folks who want to do renames are already engaged in the game so let them have some more fun with their roster.

I also think the players in the Rookie/Sophomore game should get 1 point because everything else in All-Star weekend gets a point. And I'd also recommend the 6th Man of the Year and Most Improved Player named by the computer should get 2 points like Rookie of the Year.

[garbageman]

And I'd also recommend the 6th Man of the Year and Most Improved Player named by the computer should get 2 points like Rookie of the Year.

I think they only got 1 point because we used to have owner vote on these things and not rookie of the year (probably weren't enough arguments for rookie of the year since most don't get play and the ones that do are people tanking and trying to juke the stats to get it)

Over time, the year end awards got switched around, and now we get points for giving dumb answers or best drawings of penises

[K-100]

I think we should redistribute points collected from tax teams and redistibute them to teams in the lottery. This will help bad teams collect points when they otherwise would not.

I'm also in favor of bringing back in-season negotiations for contract extensions, particulalrly for upcoming RFAs. All teams should get a chance to submit one contract offer before the season ends to their upcoming RFA and if they decline they head into UFA if RFA gets abolished.

[AngryBanana]

And I'd also recommend the 6th Man of the Year and Most Improved Player named by the computer should get 2 points like Rookie of the Year.

I think they only got 1 point because we used to have owner vote on these things and not rookie of the year (probably weren't enough arguments for rookie of the year since most don't get play and the ones that do are people tanking and trying to juke the stats to get it)

Over time, the year end awards got switched around, and now we get points for giving dumb answers or best drawings of penises

They were some good drawings though...

[garbageman]

And I'd also recommend the 6th Man of the Year and Most Improved Player named by the computer should get 2 points like Rookie of the Year.

I think they only got 1 point because we used to have owner vote on these things and not rookie of the year (probably weren't enough arguments for rookie of the year since most don't get play and the ones that do are people tanking and trying to juke the stats to get it)

Over time, the year end awards got switched around, and now we get points for giving dumb answers or best drawings of penises

They were some good drawings though...

[AngryBanana]

A few thoughts... IDK

First would be get rid of player training. Honestly, I think that this would be a simple way to make the league harder on people. While it is mentioned above that there are not that many purples with 20. That to me is still a lot.Considering that up until recently, we would only have around one to three prior to paid training, and then it seemed like nine to ten when we first started refining training.

Second would be getting rid of RFA trade pauses for the first year after retaining a player. I think it should only be applied to either a team that steals a player away or not at all. If it is applied to a team that retains I think it is adding an extra burden to teams that unnecessarily need it. I have talked about this extensively other places but that is the general gist of it.

Third, streamline training camp. IDK what the best way to do it is. Maybe even just getting rid of anything that is not recommend. As I was reminded recently, the whole thing is random anyways, so why not just make it simpler for the process and make it all recommend. I do think that it should stay at three insures, but only three and not allow people to pay. Paying may cause people to horde players they otherwise would try to move.

Lastly I like the idea mentioned above of taking back the 60 day trade moratorium. I am fine with the way it is now though so really am not driven one way or the other on it. Just know that it can be a pain in the ass sometimes that a trade cant happen just because you dont have the foresight to sign a guy before or at D60.

[Black Superman]

Can @MexicanMamba and @LazyTitanSmash expound a little on their idea of combining RFA and UFA? Answer the questions below for your vision.
1. Would the combination of rfa resigns with UFA make RFA trades follow the same 60 day trade restriction? Or would RFAs still keep their 1 year trade ban?
2. What would this look like for the sake of matching the bids? Is there a day gap between UFA 1 and 2 to allow for folks to match?
3. More so for rondo here, but what's this look like from the commissioner in terms of the logistics? Are we swimming 9 days? Creating a separate save file still? Or just overwriting players onto their eventual home teams?

[Mike Lowry]

I'll second the one about distributing the tax money to the other teams.
I think some teams go over and still make the lottery, so that wouldn't make sense to me, but direct correlation to amount you're under the tax, and it should be the whole pot.
Every point paid to taxes should go to the teams under the cap.

Also, I would like to eliminate max salary

and I can do the removal of limits on trade points

out of the training stuff, the only thing I can get behind is removing insurance.
Let the simputer butcher people randomly.

[MexicanMamba]

1. I personally don't care either way about the trade restrictions. They could stay or go in this scenario and I wouldnt feel any different about it.

2. We'd need 1 extra day between UFA 1 & 2 to allow for RFA Decisions and for folks to see exactly how much cap room they have for UFA 2.

3. I don't think you'd need a new save file in this case, unless you just chose to do it. Because in player editor, you can just swap which team the player belongs on quickly and saves you from typing in all the contract numbers too. You could just run the same amount of days. In my head the only thing that changes for UFA in this scenario is the extra day after UFA 1. Beyond that, it's just stuff that takes work away from the commish.

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[AngryBanana]

1. I personally don't care either way about the trade restrictions. They could stay or go in this scenario and I wouldnt feel any different about it.

2. We'd need 1 extra day between UFA 1 & 2 to allow for RFA Decisions and for folks to see exactly how much cap room they have for UFA 2.

3. I don't think you'd need a new save file in this case, unless you just chose to do it. Because in player editor, you can just swap which team the player belongs on quickly and saves you from typing in all the contract numbers too. You could just run the same amount of days. In my head the only thing that changes for UFA in this scenario is the extra day after UFA 1. Beyond that, it's just stuff that takes work away from the commish.

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I also was thinking about point two for RFA. I like this and think it will also streamline commish job role.

[LazyTitanSmash]

Also I like the idea of ending 60 day between trading a player. Quick flips could be fun.


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[LazyTitanSmash]

Example of RFA/UFA combo

Hawks have RFA rights to cambell. There is no RFA bidding. The pistons max bid. Cambell accepts pistons bid. Pistons now have to go to the Hawks and try to get him to relinquish RFA right.

Three scenarios than could follow.

Scenario #1 Hawks relinquish rights because the pistons offered good trade value. Cambell is a piston

Scenario #2 Hawks exercise cambell rights. Cambell is a hawk. Hawks are now probably way over the cap. The pistons are now way under the cap but all UFA 1 players are gone.

Scenario #3
If cambell refuses to sign with anyone because everyone including the hawks low balled him. The hawks lose RFA rights and now he is just like any other free agent


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[LazyTitanSmash]

You don’t even need to ask if they want to retain RFA right. They automatically get too


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[Black Superman]

I think we should redistribute points collected from tax teams and redistibute them to teams in the lottery. This will help bad teams collect points when they otherwise would not.

I'm also in favor of bringing back in-season negotiations for contract extensions, particulalrly for upcoming RFAs. All teams should get a chance to submit one contract offer before the season ends to their upcoming RFA and if they decline they head into UFA if RFA gets abolished.

The second, is hard. But DM details surrounding your idea of the tax spreading. Percentages of what's paid in etc... also tax isn't synonymous with making/not making playoffs. So when you say give it to lottery teams, that doesnt exclude teams paying tax potentially. Re think this a little but I'm very interested DM with some of your specifics

[LazyTitanSmash]

Oh and have a formal way to call a vote. 6 people want a vote we vote. Or something like that.

[BigDaddyd8720]

I saw a few people already mention expanding the playoffs and as someone who hasn't made the playoffs and still likely a couple of seasons away from it, I'm for an expansion lol. I think it would make the league more competitive and also reduce people checking out too early.

I also disagree with removing player training. I wasn't able to listen to the podcast so I'm sure I'm missing some info but I don't get why people want it removed. As a new GM, telling me I can't upgrade my players and just have to wait for them to get better on their own is kind of a turn off for me. I can get behind a cap for training but eliminating training altogether, in my opinion, would be awful. It's also part of the fun of the offseason.

I'm not sure if this is actually something that could be done but splitting salary cap between two teams would be a fun addition. Sometimes in real life, in order to get a trade done, a certain team will retain part of a player's salary. I think that is something that could help ignite the trade market even more and also bring in more creative trades instead of having to beg people with a huge amount cap space to take their bad contracts (I will never forgive myself for that Ayo contract)

[Jedihero]

Idc if I don’t get points for this but I want to echo Raptors thoughts on player names. I think we should allow all 1st round picks to be renamed, even the out of lottery ones for no points, and we should be able to make up any name and not have it have to be a real player. I think it would drive more engagement and definitely make some fun instances when Basketball McBasketballface becomes league MVP.


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