#SLOE: People's Basketball Sim League

After giving it some thought, I think we made the wrong call on contracting the playoffs to 12 teams. I know in the real NBA, it's kind of ridiculous how losing teams can make the playoffs, and that would definitely be the case with 16 teams making it in a 26 team league.

However:

1. With a 12 team playoff, the division leaders will get a bye in the first round. That means less participation (which is fun), either no points for winning the 1st series, 4 free extra points, or increasing the points you get from winning the division. That's easily done, but I think the biggest thing is participation. The more teams we have in play for the longer part of the PBSL season, the better, in my opinion.

2. 14 is too many for a lotto. In some drafts, the top 10 picks are really deep, but 11-14 are generally shit greens. Might as well take them out of the lotto and let those teams take a run at the playoffs. I think 10 teams felt really natural for a lotto. I think 10 lotto teams and 16 playoff teams really balances the draft.


Still, we voted 12 team playoffs instead of 16 team playoffs. I don't completely want to just override a vote, but if you have strong feelings about a 12 team playoff, I'd love to hear your take on it. If you voted for a 12 team playoff but really don't care one way or another--or if you voted for a 12 team playoff and would like to switch to 16, please comment. If we can work through enough of a consensus here, I'd like to switch back to 16...and if there are solid points to keeping the 12 team playoff structure that I'm missing, those would make me feel better about staying with 12

Bring on 16, I say

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I support these points, 16 playoff 10 draft lotto

I really love the idea of a 16-team playoff so count me in! Also, the 10-team lotto will be an interesting idea. It might prevent other teams from building super teams. Then again, I'm an idiot, so who knows.

So I've always liked the idea of a 12-team playoff more than 16. Part of the reason I feel why the NFL playoffs are far more exciting than the NBA playoffs is because the smaller pool of teams leads to a higher level of talent (rarely will the playoffs feature more than one team who clearly shouldn't be there), and the shorter nature of it keeps interest high and keeps it from dragging on longer than it has to.

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pmI think the biggest thing is participation. The more teams we have in play for the longer part of the PBSL season, the better, in my opinion.

On the other hand, for teams not in the playoffs, the wait for the playoffs to end and the new season to start can be agonizing. If we're worried about keeping people engaged, wouldn't making the time where most of the league is "inactive" shorter, rather than longer by adding 4 more teams that could very well all get bounced quickly in the 1st round?

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pm14 is too many for a lotto. In some drafts, the top 10 picks are really deep, but 11-14 are generally shit greens. Might as well take them out of the lotto and let those teams take a run at the playoffs. I think 10 teams felt really natural for a lotto. I think 10 lotto teams and 16 playoff teams really balances the draft.

I agree that 14 feels like too many for a lotto. On the other hand, this gives teams that would normally be stuck in "treadmill" mode a shot, if only a small one, at landing a pick that could push them into contention mode. It's a risk/reward thing, and it can be argued that a 12-team playoff doesn't punish those "on-the-fence" teams as heavily for making or missing the playoffs. Before, the "compete or tank" question was weighted slightly more towards the "tank" end of the spectrum, because the odds of you landing a high or decent draft pick were probably higher than the odds of you even making it out of 1st round by upsetting #1 or #2, let alone winning the conference or Finals. Are 3 points really better than having the rights to at least a decent prospect for at least two years? Now, "compete" seems like the better option, because taking out #3 or #4 is much more likely than upsetting #1 or #2, and if you don't, the lotto is a nice consolation prize.

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pm...or increasing the points you get from winning the division.

I'd do this.

Division winners get:
6 points for winning the Division
3 points for winning the Conference Championship
3 points for winning the Finals

Seeds 3-6 get:
3 points for making the playoffs
3 points for winning Round 1
3 points for winning the Conference Championship
3 points for winning the Finals

All teams have the chance to earn the same amount of points, but the benefit of winning your division is that you automatically get the points for winning the first round.

Xist2Inspire wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:34 pm So I've always liked the idea of a 12-team playoff more than 16. Part of the reason I feel why the NFL playoffs are far more exciting than the NBA playoffs is because the smaller pool of teams leads to a higher level of talent (rarely will the playoffs feature more than one team who clearly shouldn't be there), and the shorter nature of it keeps interest high and keeps it from dragging on longer than it has to.

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pmI think the biggest thing is participation. The more teams we have in play for the longer part of the PBSL season, the better, in my opinion.

On the other hand, for teams not in the playoffs, the wait for the playoffs to end and the new season to start can be agonizing. If we're worried about keeping people engaged, wouldn't making the time where most of the league is "inactive" shorter, rather than longer by adding 4 more teams that could very well all get bounced quickly in the 1st round?

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pm14 is too many for a lotto. In some drafts, the top 10 picks are really deep, but 11-14 are generally shit greens. Might as well take them out of the lotto and let those teams take a run at the playoffs. I think 10 teams felt really natural for a lotto. I think 10 lotto teams and 16 playoff teams really balances the draft.

I agree that 14 feels like too many for a lotto. On the other hand, this gives teams that would normally be stuck in "treadmill" mode a shot, if only a small one, at landing a pick that could push them into contention mode. It's a risk/reward thing, and it can be argued that a 12-team playoff doesn't punish those "on-the-fence" teams as heavily for making or missing the playoffs, since you have a greater chance to advance out of the 1st round if you make it, and you get a shot at a top young talent (or at least a player you can name yourself) if you miss. Before, the "compete or tank" question was weighted slightly more towards the "tank" end of the spectrum, because the odds of you landing a high or decent draft pick were probably higher than the odds of you even making it out of 1st round by upsetting #1 or #2, let alone winning the conference or Finals. Are 3 points really better than having the rights to at least a decent prospect for at least two years? Now, "compete" seems like the better option, because taking out #3 or #4 is much more likely than upsetting #1 or #2, and if you don't, the lotto is a nice consolation prize.

Thanks for the feedback, xist. To those points:

I can see how a foregone conclusion 1 vs. 8 match is pretty boring. To be fair, I can't really compare the NBA playoffs vs. MLB or NFL because I get more excited about basketball than I do about football or baseball. That point, though, is really an argument for fans of the sport. And sim league basketball doesn't really have fans, just participants.

The argument that being in the lotto and having a chance at a top 3 prospect (even a small one) is nice for those 7th or 8th place teams. They'll still get the same spot in the draft as not, and we could keep renames open until the 14th spot if that makes people happy. On the flip side of compete vs. tank, I'd posit that more playoff spots would lead to more teams trying to win. Nobody really WANTS to lose, but with fewer spots (and top teams generally being obvious), I'd worry that a team that could easily be 7th or 8th at the beginning of the season, would decide to tank sooner than later because the chances of being outside the playoffs are higher than the chances of being in the playoffs. I'd also argue that teams being stuck in that middle of the road, just missing the playoffs treadmill are there because they don't have a lotto pick. How many times has an 11-14th pick jumped to turn a middling team's luck around?

As for our fake playoffs, it doesn't make the playoffs any shorter. It's still 4 rounds, it's just fewer teams in the first round (and the same amount in the second round). And we never really get all DCs in early until there are 4 teams in the 3rd round (if we even do that).

I appreciate the feedback. I think that making it tougher to make the playoffs may increase their prestige, but I'm not wholly convinced that a 12-team playoff is advantageous for the league as a whole. Still, since none of the people chiming in about being good with the 16-man playoffs are telling me they voted for a 12-team playoff, I'm still not really sure it'd be appropriate to change the format back against the vote.

If anyone has more feedback either way, feel free to chime in.

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pm After giving it some thought, I think we made the wrong call on contracting the playoffs to 12 teams. I know in the real NBA, it's kind of ridiculous how losing teams can make the playoffs, and that would definitely be the case with 16 teams making it in a 26 team league.

However:

1. With a 12 team playoff, the division leaders will get a bye in the first round. That means less participation (which is fun), either no points for winning the 1st series, 4 free extra points, or increasing the points you get from winning the division. That's easily done, but I think the biggest thing is participation. The more teams we have in play for the longer part of the PBSL season, the better, in my opinion.

2. 14 is too many for a lotto. In some drafts, the top 10 picks are really deep, but 11-14 are generally shit greens. Might as well take them out of the lotto and let those teams take a run at the playoffs. I think 10 teams felt really natural for a lotto. I think 10 lotto teams and 16 playoff teams really balances the draft.

Just an idea, but is there any way for the program to run separate playoffs or a tournament-style for the lottery? It would encourage participation for those who miss the playoffs and offer an incentive to stay active all season long.

I wouldn't automatically award the winner of the lottery tournament the #1 pick because it would favor those middling teams on the cusp of the playoffs but more if you win then you get some increased odds to land a top 4 or so pick in the draft lotto.

Keepit100 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:37 am

garbageman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 pm After giving it some thought, I think we made the wrong call on contracting the playoffs to 12 teams. I know in the real NBA, it's kind of ridiculous how losing teams can make the playoffs, and that would definitely be the case with 16 teams making it in a 26 team league.

However:

1. With a 12 team playoff, the division leaders will get a bye in the first round. That means less participation (which is fun), either no points for winning the 1st series, 4 free extra points, or increasing the points you get from winning the division. That's easily done, but I think the biggest thing is participation. The more teams we have in play for the longer part of the PBSL season, the better, in my opinion.

2. 14 is too many for a lotto. In some drafts, the top 10 picks are really deep, but 11-14 are generally shit greens. Might as well take them out of the lotto and let those teams take a run at the playoffs. I think 10 teams felt really natural for a lotto. I think 10 lotto teams and 16 playoff teams really balances the draft.

Just an idea, but is there any way for the program to run separate playoffs or a tournament-style for the lottery? It would encourage participation for those who miss the playoffs and offer an incentive to stay active all season long.

I wouldn't automatically award the winner of the lottery tournament the #1 pick because it would favor those middling teams on the cusp of the playoffs but more if you win then you get some increased odds to land a top 4 or so pick in the draft lotto.

Unfortunately not. I'm not even sure there's a way to modify the draft order spit out by the lottery (other than force trading the picks).

However, I talked to a couple of dudes in support of 12 and a couple in support of 16 and 14 (conference winner gets a 1st round bye) would at least be an acceptable compromise. Everyone cool with that?

No objections here (full disclosure, was a 16 vote).

Count me as preferring 12 teams, but open to 14 teams (as said privately)

Guess at this point, we can't change the playoff teams. This season will be 12. We'll see what everyone thinks.