#SLOE: People's Basketball Sim League

I like the idea of posting suggestions and discussing them. But I think we've reached the point where these end-of-season votes do more harm than good.

A few reasons I think it can hurt the league:

1. The voting thread has no room for discussion. Yes, each thread links to the original suggestion thread where some discussion may have taken place, but sometimes there isn't enough discussion to help make a decision. The suggestions are usually posted in the middle of the season and the voting isn't until the end, which means a lot of times we've forgotten where our minds were when this suggestion was made. This sort of disconnect can lead to uninformed voting.

2. The point incentive for voting also leads to uninformed voting. I'll use myself as an example. Suddenly this morning, there are 12 new polls to vote on. You must vote and post SUBMITTED to get your voting points. That's a lot of polls to vote and post in, and I didn't go back and read the suggestion threads for all of the voting. All I cared about was finishing quickly so I could move on with my life and get points at the end. I'm sure I'm not the only person who rushed through just to get it over with.

3. It creates a lot of work for Doug in addition to the other responsibilities he has. He spent most of the morning putting up these polls. And honestly that isn't a big deal if we all believe that this work is going to make this a better league, but...

4. Are we sure this is doing that? Some of the proposals are head-scratchers to me. The deadline for sims seems arbitrary and not necessary to vote on. The trade restrictions have had a proposal every year and I feel like we're complicating things there. Things like the "desired contract proposal" don't really seem to add to the league at all. And sure, the idea is that people will vote and shoot down stupid rules, but what if not everyone votes? What if some of you are dumb? I'm kidding on that last one, of course. But I still see cases where a majority-voted rule might not be best for the league.

I may be the only one who feels this way, but I figured I would just put it out there. I don't think we should vote at the end of the season anymore.

I feel the number of suggestions and vote threads have gotten really ridiculous.

JNR wrote:I like the idea of posting suggestions and discussing them. But I think we've reached the point where these end-of-season votes do more harm than good.

A few reasons I think it can hurt the league:

1. The voting thread has no room for discussion. Yes, each thread links to the original suggestion thread where some discussion may have taken place, but sometimes there isn't enough discussion to help make a decision. The suggestions are usually posted in the middle of the season and the voting isn't until the end, which means a lot of times we've forgotten where our minds were when this suggestion was made. This sort of disconnect can lead to uninformed voting.

2. The point incentive for voting also leads to uninformed voting. I'll use myself as an example. Suddenly this morning, there are 12 new polls to vote on. You must vote and post SUBMITTED to get your voting points. That's a lot of polls to vote and post in, and I didn't go back and read the suggestion threads for all of the voting. All I cared about was finishing quickly so I could move on with my life and get points at the end. I'm sure I'm not the only person who rushed through just to get it over with.

3. It creates a lot of work for Doug in addition to the other responsibilities he has. He spent most of the morning putting up these polls. And honestly that isn't a big deal if we all believe that this work is going to make this a better league, but...

4. Are we sure this is doing that? Some of the proposals are head-scratchers to me. The deadline for sims seems arbitrary and not necessary to vote on. The trade restrictions have had a proposal every year and I feel like we're complicating things there. Things like the "desired contract proposal" don't really seem to add to the league at all. And sure, the idea is that people will vote and shoot down stupid rules, but what if not everyone votes? What if some of you are dumb? I'm kidding on that last one, of course. But I still see cases where a majority-voted rule might not be best for the league.

I may be the only one who feels this way, but I figured I would just put it out there. I don't think we should vote at the end of the season anymore.

I agree with most of this, except the part where you say "What if some of you are dumb? I'm kidding on the last one, of course". I don't think you should be kidding for that. No offense to whomever that applies to but I do agree that some of these things just add to complicating things further. The 3-4 team trades...I foresee disaster there if voted thru. The desired contract proposal stuff...more complications. Why give people the chance to break what isn't broken?

Just my two cents. I'm not running the league any longer so I can say it: Most of the time the GMs of the league as a whole have no clue what's in the league's best interest.

At the end of the day I sure as hell can't knock anyone for wanting to have the whole league vote on everything. I just think in some cases it could be bad when people vote thru things that should be shot down from the get go.

And also, good lord that's a lot of shit for you to post Doug. FFS man you should go on labor strike!!!!

So do we get to vote on not voting? Because that would be hilarious

LoCo89 wrote:

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Yeah I really do think.

Honestly, I'd be lying if i said I didn't agree with JNR's post. Voting is great but when you have a rule going through that is (for example) 10-9 in favor of something new... you have 10 people in favor of a new rule, 9 who want to keep as is, and 10 more that didn't voice their opinion or vote for whatever reason they may have. So essentially, 10 votes make a league-changing decision.

Also, it seems like some of the suggestions being made are being made for the sake of making a change instead of actually improving the league. And other suggestions come up when there is a restriction preventing something person A wants to do but can't under the current league rules. Just because you can't doesn't mean the rule should change. Contrarily, just because there is a rule in place doesn't mean it should stand forever. There's a saying about too many chefs in a kitchen... I think some things may be borderline approaching that feel. Now, I'm not trying to say stifle opinions and prevent people from making suggestions for improving the league. But I do feel that sometimes suggestions should be made and then a decision should be made by an individual (or small group who vote on behalf of the league).

Back for the first 8-9 seasons, i think the shadow council did a good job of rule making/keeping order in the league... but I'm not gunna lie, we as a group didn't really look to the outside for ideas to improve from the league. I think a combination of "shadow council" with "suggestion box" would be a good middle ground. And if there is something that a "shadow council" of sort would not be able to come to terms on, then I think then we send it to the league for a vote.

But I agree that I'm not exactly sure that putting out these suggestions that were made weeks ago with minimal to no discussion for a vote is really doing what's best to improve the league. If fact, rules in the league constantly being in a flux is more of a negative to me than a positive.

I've been in sim leagues since about 1999 (real time) and have seen a lot of different methods of running a league. Honestly, I have found that it's best when a league functions as an enlightened dictatorship - i.e., the league commissioner alone makes the decisions he feels are best for the league. Part and parcel with wearing the "Commissioner" hat is the "making of decisions which may cause you to be unpopular." As a commissioner you have to have thick skin (and a good dose of trust that you really are trying your best for the league). That doesn't mean the commissioner has to DO everything for the league, it just means he's the one guy who decides, "this is what we will do."

If you don't have a single point for decision-making, everything gets rules-lawyered to death (even with a "Shadow Council" - the people on the SC will rules-debate in private instead of everyone rules-debating in public).

A wise commissioner has a group of trusted GM's that he bounces ideas off, and tries to get perspective from, but does so in private and with the understanding on both sides that the GM being asked for counsel is not going to be able to ram his ideas through - it's just the commissioner looking to see if there are things he may have missed... and nothing may ever come of the discussion.

Now, if someone is really offended/bothered with the way something is being run, or if someone has an idea for something that has not been considered before, there does need to be a forum for that - it can (and should) be raised and discussed in the suggestions area. The commissioner may see a suggestion and think, "huh, I never thought of that... that's a great idea" or "you're just trying to manipulate the rules to benefit you, no." Also extremely important is the ability for the commissioner to close the discussion without someone trying to re-open it prematurely (this helps prevent excessive badgering).

In essence, suggestions should be just that - stuff you want to bring to the attention of the commissioner and trust he will read. He should have the authority to implement, ignore, or poll (if he genuinely doesn't see a benefit one way or the other) as he feels is in the best interests of the league. And the rest of us should refrain from complaining one way or the other.

IamQuailman wrote: Back for the first 8-9 seasons, i think the shadow council did a good job of rule making/keeping order in the league... but I'm not gunna lie, we as a group didn't really look to the outside for ideas to improve from the league. I think a combination of "shadow council" with "suggestion box" would be a good middle ground. And if there is something that a "shadow council" of sort would not be able to come to terms on, then I think then we send it to the league for a vote.

Can't agree more with this.

I have a lot to say on this subject, but i'm a little short on time.

ballsohard wrote:I have a lot to say on this subject, but i'm a little short on time.

I think there are very significant and accurate points being brought up here. For one, I've said this before but I think the voting on everything is a bit much. I think anyone new to the league would struggle for 3-4 seasons to understand everything and also, you can see some long time GMs struggle with all the rules that have been made up. No one has tried to make a document with all the rules because our rule system is a living evolving document at this point. That's a really good thing and also a potentially hazardous point. It's good that we can make changes to things that are broke, but there's also the old adage, If it ain't broke don't fix it. While i dont completely agree with it, i think it works for our league.

I also don't think "make a thread" is management of the league, and Doug has rightfully said to do that because that's how we've all agree'd the league should be run at the time. I do think the league does need to be manage which i'll suggest below.

A wise commissioner has a group of trusted GM's that he bounces ideas off, and tries to get perspective from, but does so in private and with the understanding on both sides that the GM being asked for counsel is not going to be able to ram his ideas through - it's just the commissioner looking to see if there are things he may have missed... and nothing may ever come of the discussion.

While i agree with this in its very broken down form, I can't say i agree with it for this league. There's a lot of people who have invested a lot of time in this league for it to come down to 1 power to make the final decision. I also don't think it's fair to that person to have it ultimately fall on them if it goes south. There's also, imo been increased activity for the voting section.


I think there's a hybrid solution that can work for this league. On a lot of the consulting project i've worked on with Hospitals across the country there seems to be the same type of problem. We create an issues list, or in this case the suggestion thread, and before you know it you've got 100 problems to try and solve and nothing is getting done. What i've seen done before and it works out well is you bring the issues list to leadership, in this case the commish and council, and you prioritize what's important and what's not. So in our case, we have suggestion threads and we make a cut off for new suggestions (enter arbitrary date here), then the council decides the top 5 list that should be voted on. From there the 5 suggestions are voted on by the league (because i believe the league should have a say on its own direction) and if it is voted "yes", it is implemented.

I also think there should be a general rule that we're not allowed to revote on something for 3-5 seasons once it's implemented unless it's causing massive failures in the league. In which case, we can allow the commissioner along with his council to decide if that is actually the case.

Anywayz, let me know what you think.

ballsohard wrote:I think there are very significant and accurate points being brought up here. For one, I've said this before but I think the voting on everything is a bit much. I think anyone new to the league would struggle for 3-4 seasons to understand everything and also, you can see some long time GMs struggle with all the rules that have been made up. No one has tried to make a document with all the rules because our rule system is a living evolving document at this point. That's a really good thing and also a potentially hazardous point. It's good that we can make changes to things that are broke, but there's also the old adage, If it ain't broke don't fix it. While i dont completely agree with it, i think it works for our league.

I also don't think "make a thread" is management of the league, and Doug has rightfully said to do that because that's how we've all agree'd the league should be run at the time. I do think the league does need to be manage which i'll suggest below.

A wise commissioner has a group of trusted GM's that he bounces ideas off, and tries to get perspective from, but does so in private and with the understanding on both sides that the GM being asked for counsel is not going to be able to ram his ideas through - it's just the commissioner looking to see if there are things he may have missed... and nothing may ever come of the discussion.

While i agree with this in its very broken down form, I can't say i agree with it for this league. There's a lot of people who have invested a lot of time in this league for it to come down to 1 power to make the final decision. I also don't think it's fair to that person to have it ultimately fall on them if it goes south. There's also, imo been increased activity for the voting section.


I think there's a hybrid solution that can work for this league. On a lot of the consulting project i've worked on with Hospitals across the country there seems to be the same type of problem. We create an issues list, or in this case the suggestion thread, and before you know it you've got 100 problems to try and solve and nothing is getting done. What i've seen done before and it works out well is you bring the issues list to leadership, in this case the commish and council, and you prioritize what's important and what's not. So in our case, we have suggestion threads and we make a cut off for new suggestions (enter arbitrary date here), then the council decides the top 5 list that should be voted on. From there the 5 suggestions are voted on by the league (because i believe the league should have a say on its own direction) and if it is voted "yes", it is implemented.

I also think there should be a general rule that we're not allowed to revote on something for 3-5 seasons once it's implemented unless it's causing massive failures in the league. In which case, we can allow the commissioner along with his council to decide if that is actually the case.

Anywayz, let me know what you think.

I like this idea alot. takes away the onus of one person having all the power to make changes but also cuts back on having to many suggestions by picking out the more important suggestions that the league should vote on.

TL-DR

TrayWithAnA wrote:TL-DR

Trade Less; Draft Right?

IamQuailman wrote:

TrayWithAnA wrote:TL-DR

Trade Less; Draft Right?

Damn straight

TrayWithAnA wrote:TL-DR

Tray's lineup, do recommend

ballsohard wrote:I think there are very significant and accurate points being brought up here. For one, I've said this before but I think the voting on everything is a bit much. I think anyone new to the league would struggle for 3-4 seasons to understand everything and also, you can see some long time GMs struggle with all the rules that have been made up. No one has tried to make a document with all the rules because our rule system is a living evolving document at this point. That's a really good thing and also a potentially hazardous point. It's good that we can make changes to things that are broke, but there's also the old adage, If it ain't broke don't fix it. While i dont completely agree with it, i think it works for our league.

I also don't think "make a thread" is management of the league, and Doug has rightfully said to do that because that's how we've all agree'd the league should be run at the time. I do think the league does need to be manage which i'll suggest below.

A wise commissioner has a group of trusted GM's that he bounces ideas off, and tries to get perspective from, but does so in private and with the understanding on both sides that the GM being asked for counsel is not going to be able to ram his ideas through - it's just the commissioner looking to see if there are things he may have missed... and nothing may ever come of the discussion.

While i agree with this in its very broken down form, I can't say i agree with it for this league. There's a lot of people who have invested a lot of time in this league for it to come down to 1 power to make the final decision. I also don't think it's fair to that person to have it ultimately fall on them if it goes south. There's also, imo been increased activity for the voting section.


I think there's a hybrid solution that can work for this league. On a lot of the consulting project i've worked on with Hospitals across the country there seems to be the same type of problem. We create an issues list, or in this case the suggestion thread, and before you know it you've got 100 problems to try and solve and nothing is getting done. What i've seen done before and it works out well is you bring the issues list to leadership, in this case the commish and council, and you prioritize what's important and what's not. So in our case, we have suggestion threads and we make a cut off for new suggestions (enter arbitrary date here), then the council decides the top 5 list that should be voted on. From there the 5 suggestions are voted on by the league (because i believe the league should have a say on its own direction) and if it is voted "yes", it is implemented.

I also think there should be a general rule that we're not allowed to revote on something for 3-5 seasons once it's implemented unless it's causing massive failures in the league. In which case, we can allow the commissioner along with his council to decide if that is actually the case.

Anywayz, let me know what you think.

I have no doubt y'all will figure out the leadership part and what works for you guys. But it definitely sounds like everyone agrees that the voting on everything was a bit much. And if your determined to have the league vote on things then what you described sounds like a pretty viable option. Weed out the unnecessary things gms propose(CG I'm looking at you ) and only put forward legitimate polls that really have no chance of harming the league but only enhance it or simply change it a bit. Sounds all good to me.