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Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:26 pm
by fearthebrow
As a couple of you know, I lost my coveted RFA Charles Tardiff because of a ticky-tack decision, a confusing rule, and a breakdown in communication.
Last season I dropped two players at 8:03 and 8:04 pm the night of the trade deadline thinking I was getting my team under the salary cap before the 8:15 pm deadline to avoid the luxury tax. Wig responded to my posts that I actually missed the 8 pm deadline and that these transactions would not reflect toward the luxury tax. Wig did not quote my post, so I didn't receive a notification and think to look at those posts. I assumed they just said "processed."
Fast forward to RFA rights this season. I exercised my rights for Tardiff and Tim Frazier (unknowingly with an outstanding luxury tax). I went back a couple days later to check the status of my RFA players. The deadline had passed to exercise rights, and that's when I found out that my RFA rights claims had been rejected because of my outstanding luxury tax, due to the players I dropped 4 minutes late. It was too late to fix.
The 8 pm and 8:15 pm deadlines are confusing. I missed the 8 pm deadline, but I think a warning would have been more appropriate in this situation. I've never done this before. Wig felt inclined to enforce the rule (which is fine), but the notification process to address an issue like this one is flawed. I'm less engaged in the game than a lot of others are here, but I think I participate enough to manage a team effectively. This shouldn't have happened, and it is extremely frustrating that it did.
Yes, I could have checked the luxury tax page to see my status, but why would I do that if I thought I was under the salary cap last season? This is the same reason I didn't go back to the RFA rights page and check the status until after THAT deadline had passed. I truly did not know. I had more than enough points to pay the tax, so I would have begrudgingly paid the 4 point tax if I had been notified that my RFA rights claims had not gone through.
Given the long-term consequences of this situation, I think a more personal heads-up would have been appropriate. I sit here now with a decent team this season, but my future is questionable. Tardiff was a big piece. I am disappointed that this happened, discouraged about my team's future, and just frustrated. This is the kind of stuff that takes the fun away from the game. It wouldn't happen in real life, and it shouldn't happen in our game.
Finally, yes, I could have offered him more money to sign him as a UFA, but that didn't seem like a good long-term strategy. I gave him a good offer that I think he would have accepted had he remained an RFA.
All that is to say that I think we need to make changes.
One proposed improvement is that the luxury tax is considered as automatically paid if a team has enough points. Fine teams that don't post it in their bank by a certain deadline and manually apply the luxury tax deduction AND the fine to that team's bank.
Another proposed improvement is to get rid of the two deadlines that are 15 minutes apart at the trade deadline. I know what it's for, but it is confusing in the moment. Just have one deadline and get your trades done with enough time to adjust your lineup. If not, the lineup is automatically run as recommended.
My final proposed improvement is to notify GMs about issues by quoting a post, not responding to a thread. Quoting a post generates a notification. Responding in a thread does not.
I'm looking forward now and will continue to play, but I think this situation was poorly handled, and I also think it taints the league. Good luck to Quail with Tardiff. He got him fair and square, but he shouldn't have had the opportunity.
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:55 pm
by ballsohard
fearthebrow wrote:As a couple of you know, I lost my coveted RFA Charles Tardiff because of a ticky-tack decision, a confusing rule, and a breakdown in communication.
Last season I dropped two players at 8:03 and 8:04 pm the night of the trade deadline thinking I was getting my team under the salary cap before the 8:15 pm deadline to avoid the luxury tax. Wig responded to my posts that I actually missed the 8 pm deadline and that these transactions would not reflect toward the luxury tax. Wig did not quote my post, so I didn't receive a notification and think to look at those posts. I assumed they just said "processed."
Fast forward to RFA rights this season. I exercised my rights for Tardiff and Tim Frazier (unknowingly with an outstanding luxury tax). I went back a couple days later to check the status of my RFA players. The deadline had passed to exercise rights, and that's when I found out that my RFA rights claims had been rejected because of my outstanding luxury tax, due to the players I dropped 4 minutes late. It was too late to fix.
The 8 pm and 8:15 pm deadlines are confusing. I missed the 8 pm deadline, but I think a warning would have been more appropriate in this situation. I've never done this before. Wig felt inclined to enforce the rule (which is fine), but the notification process to address an issue like this one is flawed. I'm less engaged in the game than a lot of others are here, but I think I participate enough to manage a team effectively. This shouldn't have happened, and it is extremely frustrating that it did.
Yes, I could have checked the luxury tax page to see my status, but why would I do that if I thought I was under the salary cap last season? This is the same reason I didn't go back to the RFA rights page and check the status until after THAT deadline had passed. I truly did not know. I had more than enough points to pay the tax, so I would have begrudgingly paid the 4 point tax if I had been notified that my RFA rights claims had not gone through.
Given the long-term consequences of this situation, I think a more personal heads-up would have been appropriate. I sit here now with a decent team this season, but my future is questionable. Tardiff was a big piece. I am disappointed that this happened, discouraged about my team's future, and just frustrated. This is the kind of stuff that takes the fun away from the game. It wouldn't happen in real life, and it shouldn't happen in our game.
Finally, yes, I could have offered him more money to sign him as a UFA, but that didn't seem like a good long-term strategy. I gave him a good offer that I think he would have accepted had he remained an RFA.
All that is to say that I think we need to make changes.
One proposed improvement is that the luxury tax is considered as automatically paid if a team has enough points. Fine teams that don't post it in their bank by a certain deadline and manually apply the luxury tax deduction AND the fine to that team's bank.
Another proposed improvement is to get rid of the two deadlines that are 15 minutes apart at the trade deadline. I know what it's for, but it is confusing in the moment. Just have one deadline and get your trades done with enough time to adjust your lineup. If not, the lineup is automatically run as recommended.
My final proposed improvement is to notify GMs about issues by quoting a post, not responding to a thread. Quoting a post generates a notification. Responding in a thread does not.
I'm looking forward now and will continue to play, but I think this situation was poorly handled, and I also think it taints the league. Good luck to Quail with Tardiff. He got him fair and square, but he shouldn't have had the opportunity.
Honestly I feel for people who lose guys they want to keep over technicality; but a lot of this game comes down to strategy and discipline. The quoting the post thing is probably fine , but there’s a few points I want to touch on.
The commissioner has a lot of time sink into this game with every sim. Along with typing out each of the teams dcs, improving processes and dealing w our complaining ; he keeps track of the tax for you. I really can’t agree that if it’s in the bank he takes it out and fines you. That’s on you and your responsibility. If it’s in your bank , it’s a lot easier for you to check one thread and post on your own bank than him to do it for all the due teams.
Think about it, you’re asking him to quote you for notifications bc it’s not convenient to check, then you’re asking him to check your bank. Pay your fine . And then fine you.not just you either .. everyone in the tax. That doesn’t seem fair.
The last thing I want to touch on is cutting players to get into the tax. I agree the two times could be confusing to someone new. But I will also say, you have all season to cut your guys. There’s been bigger issues besides not cutting guys in time , like injuries causing teams to go into the tax which I’m a little more sympathetic towards.
Alll in all I appreciate you in the league and am glad you’re staying but some of this stuff just seems like you may be a little sensitive since it just happened to you. Nola lost Greg Monroe a few seasons ago bc of a tax. You’re not the first or the last but I’m sorry it happened.
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:13 pm
by LoCo89
fearthebrow wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:26 pm
As a couple of you know, I lost my coveted RFA Charles Tardiff because of a ticky-tack decision, a confusing rule, and a breakdown in communication.
Last season I dropped two players at 8:03 and 8:04 pm the night of the trade deadline thinking I was getting my team under the salary cap before the 8:15 pm deadline to avoid the luxury tax. Wig responded to my posts that I actually missed the 8 pm deadline and that these transactions would not reflect toward the luxury tax. Wig did not quote my post, so I didn't receive a notification and think to look at those posts. I assumed they just said "processed."
Fast forward to RFA rights this season. I exercised my rights for Tardiff and Tim Frazier (unknowingly with an outstanding luxury tax). I went back a couple days later to check the status of my RFA players. The deadline had passed to exercise rights, and that's when I found out that my RFA rights claims had been rejected because of my outstanding luxury tax, due to the players I dropped 4 minutes late. It was too late to fix.
The 8 pm and 8:15 pm deadlines are confusing. I missed the 8 pm deadline, but I think a warning would have been more appropriate in this situation. I've never done this before. Wig felt inclined to enforce the rule (which is fine), but the notification process to address an issue like this one is flawed. I'm less engaged in the game than a lot of others are here, but I think I participate enough to manage a team effectively. This shouldn't have happened, and it is extremely frustrating that it did.
Yes, I could have checked the luxury tax page to see my status, but why would I do that if I thought I was under the salary cap last season? This is the same reason I didn't go back to the RFA rights page and check the status until after THAT deadline had passed. I truly did not know. I had more than enough points to pay the tax, so I would have begrudgingly paid the 4 point tax if I had been notified that my RFA rights claims had not gone through.
Given the long-term consequences of this situation, I think a more personal heads-up would have been appropriate. I sit here now with a decent team this season, but my future is questionable. Tardiff was a big piece. I am disappointed that this happened, discouraged about my team's future, and just frustrated. This is the kind of stuff that takes the fun away from the game. It wouldn't happen in real life, and it shouldn't happen in our game.
Finally, yes, I could have offered him more money to sign him as a UFA, but that didn't seem like a good long-term strategy. I gave him a good offer that I think he would have accepted had he remained an RFA.
All that is to say that I think we need to make changes.
One proposed improvement is that the luxury tax is considered as automatically paid if a team has enough points. Fine teams that don't post it in their bank by a certain deadline and manually apply the luxury tax deduction AND the fine to that team's bank.
Another proposed improvement is to get rid of the two deadlines that are 15 minutes apart at the trade deadline. I know what it's for, but it is confusing in the moment. Just have one deadline and get your trades done with enough time to adjust your lineup. If not, the lineup is automatically run as recommended.
My final proposed improvement is to notify GMs about issues by quoting a post, not responding to a thread. Quoting a post generates a notification. Responding in a thread does not.
I'm looking forward now and will continue to play, but I think this situation was poorly handled, and I also think it taints the league. Good luck to Quail with Tardiff. He got him fair and square, but he shouldn't have had the opportunity.
I'm working on something right now and might get back to this, but a couple of just quick things.
I'm sorry but I dont believe you would react any differently to a notification about a release thread. Youd probably still assume it was just a release.
I don't think it's fair to want have commish spend more time working on teams' banks, especially if you cant be bothered to check a tax thread
There was ample time to release players, you did not have to wait till the last minute (or rather past it). This isn't the first time its happened, and it wont be the last. That doesn't mean it should be someone else's responsibility
If the deadline is confusing for you, you could have looked or asked for some sort of clarification. It wasnt posted this deadline sure, but it's been made clear in the past what the 8pm and 8:15 deadlines cover. Not to mention, you know there's enough of us around here and on skype to get an answer on anything you need or at least to get wig to clarify.
That all being said, I think wigs new sticky notification at the top of the forums is a good enough solution to solve these "issues".
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:47 pm
by NOLa.
I won't pile on because balls and LoCo pretty much said what I would say, but I do want to talk about the improvements you suggested.
I do not like the idea of having someone like the commissioner go to a team's point bank and take points out and make edits. For me personally, that's my point bank thread. You can recalculate and double check my amounts all you want but I wouldn't really appreciate someone making edits to my bank.
As a GM we are asked to do very few things: submit your depth charts, draft your player or make a list, complete free agency and keep up with your points. As we know with depth charts, drafting and free agency, these aren't actually required. If it wasn't, we wouldn't reward depth chart participation, we would be penalizing absences. I think points are probably the strictest process we created for this game and I do not think it's unfair to require GMs to keep up with their banks.
For the two deadlines, this was implemented because there was so much mass confusion when we had the trade deadline fall on the deadline the depth charts were due. It's been so much better with the two different deadlines and I can't recall where anyone ran into this situation you ran into. I'm not a big fan of changing a process that's been fairly successful and gives GMs time to submit their depth charts because of a one-time instance.
The third proposal I like, but not under the current setup. Wig has spent a lot of time and resources into running and sustaining this league, and I know we take this for granted. I get antsy when I don't see Wig signed-in around the 5pm deadlines for sims which I know is selfish. However, I still like this suggestion of notification and following up.
What if the tax man became a volunteer position? This would free up some more time for Wig, and part of the duties can be to PM teams with outstanding tax bills when playoffs start. Just something to build on because I can honestly say I'm one of the few guys who has felt this sting, so I don't mind throwing out a solution.
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:02 pm
by TheSyndicate
I think what would have (and will in the future) help the whole situation is to make the roster cut/Tax definition deadline 8:15 on trade deadline day. That way if you make a trade at 8 and want to cut guys at 8:05 or whatever, you can. Just like that extra 15 minutes is good for setting lineups it could be good for finalizing rosters. This would have helped your situation, and requires no extra work by the commish.
Just my two cents...
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 pm
by TheSyndicate
Just make sure your trade isn’t consummated at 8:00:36, of course
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:14 pm
by LoCo89
TheSyndicate wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 pm
Just make sure your trade isn’t consummated at 8:00:36, of course
Aren't you quitting? Stop making good suggestions
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:26 am
by TheSyndicate
LoCo89 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:14 pm
TheSyndicate wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 pm
Just make sure your trade isn’t consummated at 8:00:36, of course
Aren't you quitting? Stop making good suggestions
I may be quitting, but I'll never leave you, baby.
Re: Bitter and Disappointed
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:22 am
by Soundwave
TheSyndicate wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:02 pm
I think what would have (and will in the future) help the whole situation is to make the roster cut/Tax definition deadline 8:15 on trade deadline day. That way if you make a trade at 8 and want to cut guys at 8:05 or whatever, you can. Just like that extra 15 minutes is good for setting lineups it could be good for finalizing rosters. This would have helped your situation, and requires no extra work by the commish.
Just my two cents...
Or, to make it even less confusing, Everything has to be done by 5:00 (Not 5:00:36) just like every other thing.