#SLOE: People's Basketball Sim League

While I was more or less out of touch this past week on vacation (with limited internet service), I had a chance to think about a number of things with the way things are done in the PBSL. I think we have a pretty good system, but it isn't perfect. And as I see it, one of the primary jobs of a commissioner is to take periodic inventory, look at what is working, what isn't, and see if there are things that can be improved upon.

First of all, my governing philosophy is that you have to balance "is it fun" with "is it realistic" with "simple" and with "amount of work required." Yes, for example, we could manually implement a full-blown cap tracking system, complete with cap holds for future picks, multiple levels of poison pill contracts, Early Bird Rights, cap holds for Bird Rights which limit your cap until a player is signed, ad infinitum. But only one or two people will really understand it, and it's a whole lot of work for not a lot of extra reward.

So, with that out of the way, here are some thoughts (in no particular order):

DOING YOUR OWN INPUTTING

I've hinted a little bit at this before, and I'd like to tell you all what I am working on implementing (there are some technical glitches I am working through) already: offering the option for teams to submit their own Depth Charts, Draft Lists, and Free Agent Bids. I have learned a few things from the way things were implemented in the IJBL and am already looking for ways to improve upon the system. THIS WILL BE OPTIONAL but if you are worried about getting things exactly the way you want them, this is coming. I will be giving more details once I work out the technical bugs, but I'm about 90% of the way done; this may be up by the All-Star Break.

DRAFT SCHEDULE

The draft is generally the most eventful day of the season, and is certainly one of the most frenzied in terms of negotiating trades due to the "on the clock" nature of the draft. A number of ideas have been put forth for ways to improve the draft. The two that seemed most obvious as improvements were 1. stop the draft clock at 10 pm Central instead of midnight and 2. try to make the draft start on Saturday to give the greatest chance of avoiding work conflicts. So effective in 2008, I will try to schedule the draft for 8 am to 10 pm starting on a Saturday.

DRAFT FILE/PLAYERS

I should note I think it is GOOD thing that players are not finalized before the Trade Deadline (the earlier an accurate read on a draft file can be had, the greater the incentive to "tank" if the draft is "good"). However, as mentioned above, draft day is one of the most eventful days of the season, and is pretty frenzied as is. Obviously, the file has to be finalized "before the draft" in order for teams to make their picks, so that "practical" deadline has been a de facto deadline to this point. I personally would prefer, however, for the draft file to be "finalized" between the trade deadline and the start of the playoffs. This gives teams not in the playoffs something to keep their interest (scouting the draft file) for the two weeks of playoff games.

As an aside, we're soon approaching the point where our draft classes will not have hit their primes in the real world, so the draft file will become a more inexact science. This is a good time to consider what will happen once we start getting fictional players when we "pass" the current day (will we still adjust the draft file?).

TRAININGS (INCLUDING TRAINING CAMP)

For some reason, I feel these are coupled. I made no secret a couple of seasons ago that I didn't particularly like that Training Camp has a tendency to turn promising young players into busts and proposed what I felt was a simple solution. Expect that discussion to return to the forum to try to refine the idea and get it into a form that is ready for an up-or-down vote as we get to the end of the season. On a similar note, I'd like to take another look at Paid Trainings. We've had them more or less in their current form for a sim decade now and I think it's healthy to make sure they're still doing what we intend. I'm not saying they aren't, but I think it's worth asking again "why are we doing this" and "is this accomplishing the purpose we put it into the league for?" The answer may well be, "they're doing exactly what we want them to" and that's fine if it's the case, but it never hurts to look again.

SUGGESTIONS

I want to get a more formal structure in place whereby suggestions can be worked on in one area, and once it is felt that a suggestions is sufficiently polished to be presented for an up-or-down vote, they can be marked for review. I will definitely be looking at this as well.

That's it for now - more when I think of something.

Would just like to add a thought of mine (if anyone cares).

I would love to devise a way to add more incentive to winning. A lot of discussion was had about penalizing losing, but I believe we need to flip that coin.

Soundwave wrote:Would just like to add a thought of mine (if anyone cares).

I would love to devise a way to add more incentive to winning. A lot of discussion was had about penalizing losing, but I believe we need to flip that coin.

I agree with this, or even just a point reward for winning the championship separate from the "winning a playoff series" reward of only 4 points.

I have more to add, but on my phone registering for baby stuff at Babies R Us lol so I'll do that later

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

IamQuailman wrote:

Soundwave wrote:Would just like to add a thought of mine (if anyone cares).

I would love to devise a way to add more incentive to winning. A lot of discussion was had about penalizing losing, but I believe we need to flip that coin.

I agree with this, or even just a point reward for winning the championship separate from the "winning a playoff series" reward of only 4 points.

I have more to add, but on my phone registering for baby stuff at Babies R Us lol so I'll do that later

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

SLOE

JUS SAIYAN

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

If you really want to reward winning, the luxury tax penalties/point system have to be revised or even abolished.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

78# wrote:If you really want to reward winning, the luxury tax penalties/point system have to be revised or even abolished.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Elaborate preez

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I like the point system, but I feel its become paltry overall. Not enough points are given for certain rewards especially winning a championship, making the All-Star team, improving record, etc. Also, teams who are going all in to win a title end up getting severely punished whether they win it or not especially if they suffer a key injury during the playoffs. There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award. The luxury tax is also doing more than keeping teams in check. It's been a death penalty for certain teams who can't participate in free agency for multiple seasons (which can wane interest) especially when the point system doesn't reward enough at times. Also, the luxury tax was meant to help with competitive balance in the league, but that hasn't been the case. Teams are still tanking overall and last season was the least competitive balance we've seen. Twelve teams had winning records while fifteen teams were ten or more games under .500. The Magic weren't rewarded for trying to build the best team possible. It's pretty much made them irrelevant for 4-5 seasons.

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I like the point system, but I feel its become paltry overall. Not enough points are given for certain rewards especially winning a championship, making the All-Star team, improving record, etc. Also, teams who are going all in to win a title end up getting severely punished whether they win it or not especially if they suffer a key injury during the playoffs. There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award. The luxury tax is also doing more than keeping teams in check. It's been a death penalty for certain teams who can't participate in free agency for multiple seasons (which can wane interest) especially when the point system doesn't reward enough at times. Also, the luxury tax was meant to help with competitive balance in the league, but that hasn't been the case. Teams are still tanking overall and last season was the least competitive balance we've seen. Twelve teams had winning records while fifteen teams were ten or more games under .500. The Magic weren't rewarded for trying to build the best team possible. It's pretty much made them irrelevant for 4-5 seasons.

The tax didnt make them trade 2 picks away for KVH.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

IamQuailman wrote:

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I like the point system, but I feel its become paltry overall. Not enough points are given for certain rewards especially winning a championship, making the All-Star team, improving record, etc. Also, teams who are going all in to win a title end up getting severely punished whether they win it or not especially if they suffer a key injury during the playoffs. There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award. The luxury tax is also doing more than keeping teams in check. It's been a death penalty for certain teams who can't participate in free agency for multiple seasons (which can wane interest) especially when the point system doesn't reward enough at times. Also, the luxury tax was meant to help with competitive balance in the league, but that hasn't been the case. Teams are still tanking overall and last season was the least competitive balance we've seen. Twelve teams had winning records while fifteen teams were ten or more games under .500. The Magic weren't rewarded for trying to build the best team possible. It's pretty much made them irrelevant for 4-5 seasons.

The tax didnt make them trade 2 picks away for KVH.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Thats what will keep them irrelevant more than the tax

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

IamQuailman wrote:

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I like the point system, but I feel its become paltry overall. Not enough points are given for certain rewards especially winning a championship, making the All-Star team, improving record, etc. Also, teams who are going all in to win a title end up getting severely punished whether they win it or not especially if they suffer a key injury during the playoffs. There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award. The luxury tax is also doing more than keeping teams in check. It's been a death penalty for certain teams who can't participate in free agency for multiple seasons (which can wane interest) especially when the point system doesn't reward enough at times. Also, the luxury tax was meant to help with competitive balance in the league, but that hasn't been the case. Teams are still tanking overall and last season was the least competitive balance we've seen. Twelve teams had winning records while fifteen teams were ten or more games under .500. The Magic weren't rewarded for trying to build the best team possible. It's pretty much made them irrelevant for 4-5 seasons.

The tax didnt make them trade 2 picks away for KVH.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I agree the draft picks were a big problem.

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award.

I agree with certain points in your comment. I wanted to point out this one though in particular. I think this is where different folks have different strokes. Not to take shots in any way at any one....but I need no compensation to go all in. There is one goal to me and that is to win it all. I have no chill. If I'm competing I want to be a true contender. I want to be a legitimate threat to win the championship. If I'm not then I need to do whatever it takes to get there. I will use whatever system placed in front of me to do that. I will figure out how the system works for me. You change the system and I'll figure out how to work that system to get me where I need to be.

What is the purpose of that paragraph?

It's very simple. If you need more rewards than simply knowing that you beat the other 28 bustas, then you probably will never get over that mountain.

With regards to the training piece, have we ever thought about rewarding teams that keep their players or some of their players. Maybe just a discounted training session or something along those lines to really benefit holding onto a middle of the road guy for his four year rookie deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also, really great original post, Wig. Look forward to your state of the Union and some of the bullet points brought up here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DarthVegito wrote:

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award.

I agree with certain points in your comment. I wanted to point out this one though in particular. I think this is where different folks have different strokes. Not to take shots in any way at any one....but I need no compensation to go all in. There is one goal to me and that is to win it all. I have no chill. If I'm competing I want to be a true contender. I want to be a legitimate threat to win the championship. If I'm not then I need to do whatever it takes to get there. I will use whatever system placed in front of me to do that. I will figure out how the system works for me. You change the system and I'll figure out how to work that system to get me where I need to be.

What is the purpose of that paragraph?

It's very simple. If you need more rewards than simply knowing that you beat the other 28 bustas, then you probably will never get over that mountain.

We all want to win a championship, but I don't think I will go about it the way I did recently by going way over the cap and giving me a huge tax bill which is taking 3-4 seasons to pay it off especially since it takes alot of luck to stay healthy the entire playoffs. It could have been worse if I didn't trade Webber halfway thru the 2005 season when I was 27-11 with the third best record in the league a year after I went to the Finals, but the tax bill would have been even more outrageous.

78# wrote:

DarthVegito wrote:

78# wrote:
There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award.

I agree with certain points in your comment. I wanted to point out this one though in particular. I think this is where different folks have different strokes. Not to take shots in any way at any one....but I need no compensation to go all in. There is one goal to me and that is to win it all. I have no chill. If I'm competing I want to be a true contender. I want to be a legitimate threat to win the championship. If I'm not then I need to do whatever it takes to get there. I will use whatever system placed in front of me to do that. I will figure out how the system works for me. You change the system and I'll figure out how to work that system to get me where I need to be.

What is the purpose of that paragraph?

It's very simple. If you need more rewards than simply knowing that you beat the other 28 bustas, then you probably will never get over that mountain.

We all want to win a championship, but I don't think I will go about it the way I did recently by going way over the cap and giving me a huge tax bill which is taking 3-4 seasons to pay it off especially since it takes alot of luck to stay healthy the entire playoffs. It could have been worse if I didn't trade Webber halfway thru the 2005 season when I was 27-11 with the third best record in the league a year after I went to the Finals, but the tax bill would have been even more outrageous.

Would it be fair to say that you did not work within the system in place to give yourself the best possible chance both current and in the future?

DarthVegito wrote:

78# wrote:

DarthVegito wrote: I agree with certain points in your comment. I wanted to point out this one though in particular. I think this is where different folks have different strokes. Not to take shots in any way at any one....but I need no compensation to go all in. There is one goal to me and that is to win it all. I have no chill. If I'm competing I want to be a true contender. I want to be a legitimate threat to win the championship. If I'm not then I need to do whatever it takes to get there. I will use whatever system placed in front of me to do that. I will figure out how the system works for me. You change the system and I'll figure out how to work that system to get me where I need to be.

What is the purpose of that paragraph?

It's very simple. If you need more rewards than simply knowing that you beat the other 28 bustas, then you probably will never get over that mountain.

We all want to win a championship, but I don't think I will go about it the way I did recently by going way over the cap and giving me a huge tax bill which is taking 3-4 seasons to pay it off especially since it takes alot of luck to stay healthy the entire playoffs. It could have been worse if I didn't trade Webber halfway thru the 2005 season when I was 27-11 with the third best record in the league a year after I went to the Finals, but the tax bill would have been even more outrageous.

Would it be fair to say that you did not work within the system in place to give yourself the best possible chance both current and in the future?

Yes it's fair to say that. I didn't expect the tax bill to be quite as high when I made the moves I did. So I've changed my approach since and I'm enjoying the rebuild since my guys are showing upside after TC.

78# wrote:

DarthVegito wrote:

78# wrote:
We all want to win a championship, but I don't think I will go about it the way I did recently by going way over the cap and giving me a huge tax bill which is taking 3-4 seasons to pay it off especially since it takes alot of luck to stay healthy the entire playoffs. It could have been worse if I didn't trade Webber halfway thru the 2005 season when I was 27-11 with the third best record in the league a year after I went to the Finals, but the tax bill would have been even more outrageous.

Would it be fair to say that you did not work within the system in place to give yourself the best possible chance both current and in the future?

Yes it's fair to say that. I didn't expect the tax bill to be quite as high when I made the moves I did. So I've changed my approach since and I'm enjoying the rebuild since my guys are showing upside after TC.

Ok, so I promise the purpose of that was not to chastise you or have you call out yourself. I did have a reason for that line of questioning. And that is this: Your problem came from GM error. Not anything the game or our rules and guidelines in place forced you to do. As was the same in the case of the Magic. Yes, they went all in, but was it a smart "all-in"? I'd say hell no, and I know coltsguy would too. They wouldn't regret going all in but they would do it a bit differently with a bit more planning for the future in mind. We all do it. When I went "all-in" with Kemp and Zo, it got me 55 wins and little else. I left myself with nothing for the future and was stuck to sit and rebuild.

I think all of our definitions of all-in is saying Frye it and doing whatever it takes to win a ring. And usually that means running up a large tax bill. But that can be managed if done correctly. The league has seen two instances(Rockets and Magic) where going for it all with no caution to the tax, cost both teams 3-5 years of rebuilding. I think the tax has been excellent. I think the points system has been real solid. Teams are able to train their players IF they use their points cautiously and with thought. I really don't think teams that win it all should get more points than they currently do. THEN, this great tax system will start to be overpowered by the teams who stay at the top and truly can beat the tax even longer. If you win a championship, you get satisfaction. What more could one want?

I'll end by saying in my opinion, if you want to give teams a want to win and care more and try to win more than lose, then we'll focus on training camp. I know ya'll like the word "tanking" but rebuilding thru draft is a real and legit way to build a team. Due to TC though, GMs have had to go the "Hinkie Route" and take many many years rebuilding because of TC destroying their newly acquired players. THIS is what needs focus. TC is what kills interest and kills any want to try and compete. I get a guy like Granger, looks good, I'm Fryeing excited about him. TC kills him immediately and it literally a wasted year of losing and rebuilding. So my main point is that I truly believe that TC is the MAIN motivator of people wanting to lose games OR just not caring. The other main motivator is simply due to bad GM management which we will never end or control. If we focus on the TC, I think that will strongly improve the winning mentality in this league.

IamQuailman wrote:

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I like the point system, but I feel its become paltry overall. Not enough points are given for certain rewards especially winning a championship, making the All-Star team, improving record, etc. Also, teams who are going all in to win a title end up getting severely punished whether they win it or not especially if they suffer a key injury during the playoffs. There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award. The luxury tax is also doing more than keeping teams in check. It's been a death penalty for certain teams who can't participate in free agency for multiple seasons (which can wane interest) especially when the point system doesn't reward enough at times. Also, the luxury tax was meant to help with competitive balance in the league, but that hasn't been the case. Teams are still tanking overall and last season was the least competitive balance we've seen. Twelve teams had winning records while fifteen teams were ten or more games under .500. The Magic weren't rewarded for trying to build the best team possible. It's pretty much made them irrelevant for 4-5 seasons.

The tax didnt make them trade 2 picks away for KVH.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

But I did.

IamQuailman wrote:

78# wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:Personally I like the point system. But teams that go all in to get a championship and make it to the finals/win should be rewarded.

But i think the lux tax is working great at keeping teams in check (see Rockets, magic)

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I like the point system, but I feel its become paltry overall. Not enough points are given for certain rewards especially winning a championship, making the All-Star team, improving record, etc. Also, teams who are going all in to win a title end up getting severely punished whether they win it or not especially if they suffer a key injury during the playoffs. There's no legitimate reason for a team to go fully in to win a championship when the risk is far greater than the award. The luxury tax is also doing more than keeping teams in check. It's been a death penalty for certain teams who can't participate in free agency for multiple seasons (which can wane interest) especially when the point system doesn't reward enough at times. Also, the luxury tax was meant to help with competitive balance in the league, but that hasn't been the case. Teams are still tanking overall and last season was the least competitive balance we've seen. Twelve teams had winning records while fifteen teams were ten or more games under .500. The Magic weren't rewarded for trying to build the best team possible. It's pretty much made them irrelevant for 4-5 seasons.

The tax didnt make them trade 2 picks away for KVH.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Yes it did

I know that TC kills players, which is frustrating but it is makes the draft realistic. Not that players actually show up for training camp looking awesome and leave looking terrible but it makes the draft uncertain as it is in real life. Maybe we say, forget real life, we want the certainty and that's okay but I do think we lose something by making the draft more of a science.

Okay, now i got some time to post some of my thoughts in response to your first post Wig!

WigNosy wrote:DOING YOUR OWN INPUTTING

I've hinted a little bit at this before, and I'd like to tell you all what I am working on implementing (there are some technical glitches I am working through) already: offering the option for teams to submit their own Depth Charts, Draft Lists, and Free Agent Bids. I have learned a few things from the way things were implemented in the IJBL and am already looking for ways to improve upon the system. THIS WILL BE OPTIONAL but if you are worried about getting things exactly the way you want them, this is coming. I will be giving more details once I work out the technical bugs, but I'm about 90% of the way done; this may be up by the All-Star Break.

I think this is great for people who can log in and do those or those that "don't trust the system". Although, my one concern is Free Agency and inputting bids. How much access would a GM have to viewing other offers in for a certain player? Also, would people be able to see the "desired contract amount" as well. As inputters, I know that it was THE expectation AND standard that a) no bids were ever inputted until all other inputters had submitted their bids, b) no PMs to Negotiator were viewed prior to ALL inputters submitting bids, and c) no inputters view "desired contract" prior to submitting bids. Everything was blind. Will this take away from that. And also, I want others to be assured that, as wig said, this will be OPTIONAL. If you rather type out on the forum and leave it to the inputters, by all means, please continue on business as usual.

DRAFT SCHEDULE

The draft is generally the most eventful day of the season, and is certainly one of the most frenzied in terms of negotiating trades due to the "on the clock" nature of the draft. A number of ideas have been put forth for ways to improve the draft. The two that seemed most obvious as improvements were 1. stop the draft clock at 10 pm Central instead of midnight and 2. try to make the draft start on Saturday to give the greatest chance of avoiding work conflicts. So effective in 2008, I will try to schedule the draft for 8 am to 10 pm starting on a Saturday.

I am all on-board with making 8am to 10pm the standard schedule, however, I am not a huge fan of Saturday drafts. I feel like the slowest, most inactive days in the league are Saturday and Sunday, and many people travel/spend time with friends/family over the weekends. I think holding it over a weekend would actually reduce trade talks/activity than help. But that's just my $.02.

DRAFT FILE/PLAYERS

I should note I think it is GOOD thing that players are not finalized before the Trade Deadline (the earlier an accurate read on a draft file can be had, the greater the incentive to "tank" if the draft is "good"). However, as mentioned above, draft day is one of the most eventful days of the season, and is pretty frenzied as is. Obviously, the file has to be finalized "before the draft" in order for teams to make their picks, so that "practical" deadline has been a de facto deadline to this point. I personally would prefer, however, for the draft file to be "finalized" between the trade deadline and the start of the playoffs. This gives teams not in the playoffs something to keep their interest (scouting the draft file) for the two weeks of playoff games.

As an aside, we're soon approaching the point where our draft classes will not have hit their primes in the real world, so the draft file will become a more inexact science. This is a good time to consider what will happen once we start getting fictional players when we "pass" the current day (will we still adjust the draft file?).

100% on board with having the draft class finalized by start of the playoffs.

TRAININGS (INCLUDING TRAINING CAMP)

For some reason, I feel these are coupled. I made no secret a couple of seasons ago that I didn't particularly like that Training Camp has a tendency to turn promising young players into busts and proposed what I felt was a simple solution. Expect that discussion to return to the forum to try to refine the idea and get it into a form that is ready for an up-or-down vote as we get to the end of the season. On a similar note, I'd like to take another look at Paid Trainings. We've had them more or less in their current form for a sim decade now and I think it's healthy to make sure they're still doing what we intend. I'm not saying they aren't, but I think it's worth asking again "why are we doing this" and "is this accomplishing the purpose we put it into the league for?" The answer may well be, "they're doing exactly what we want them to" and that's fine if it's the case, but it never hurts to look again.

I'm a fan of paid trainings, as it gives points and the point system some positive use (as opposed to the negative use, paying the tax). If we take away trainings, we lose a big incentive of collecting points to begin with. But I do like your "TC reconstruction" idea you posted, if it is a limited option. It would have to be a high dollar amount, at least 60-80 points, AND it would have to take place during the season when the player had a bad TC. I feel like this could be a good way to counteract the negatives of TC. And people know the risk of paying that 60-80 points... TC could always strike again the next year.