#SLOE: People's Basketball Sim League

Current Rule: if you decline an RFA under the rules now, the only real consequence is you lose the ability to match and they enter unrestricted free agency. Other than that, you can still give up to 5 years and up to 12.5% on declined RFAs in round 1 of unrestricted free agency

Proposed Rule Change: If a player is declined, limit the contract that can be offered to declined RFAs to the same as external free agents (up to 4years, up to 10%). Essentially the same max anyone else can offer

Reasoning: the current rule creates a loophole that hasn't been used yet. However, it is there. What the loophole is is that you can decline the RFA rights of a max level player, gain back the caphold, attempt to use the freed ca in RFA, then more than likely sign back the declined player for a max deal in the first round of UFA

Example: so because of unpaid tax, Marion is for all intents and purposes a declined RFA (UFA) IF I had cap space to use in restricted free agency, I could use the caphold money from Marion being declined, possibly sign a new player, then turn back around and max Shawn Marion and more than likely sign him.

The reason why I'm bringing this to attention now, is that after finding it the loophole due to unusual circumstances, I felt it needed to be brought to the attention of the league and closed immediately, rather than possibly being accused of trying to use the loophole by bringing it up later.

In keeping with this theme, since Marion is really the only person that got declined and should be maxed (Sorry Greg Buckner), I'm willing to limit the contract I offer him to my proposed 4 years, 10% to counteract any allegations that I may have attempted to use this loophole for my own gain

UFA's don't have a cap hold? If not, that sounds like the loophole, not this weirdo thing.

42PhD wrote:UFA's don't have a cap hold? If not, that sounds like the loophole, not this weirdo thing.

Any team that has enough funds for exactly 1 max level player can offer that max contract to up to ten different players. Same thing as a team "entertaining" 10 different max guys IRL. Whoever agrees to terms first is where the contract goes. No cap holds in normal free agency.

That's fine, but if that allows you to also use your Bird Rights later, that is a loophole. If that is a practical improbability, then maybe not, but that seems to be what is in question above... Using cap space to sign UFA then signing your own player via Bird Rights too.

42PhD wrote:That's fine, but if that allows you to also use your Bird Rights later, that is a loophole. If that is a practical improbability, then maybe not, but that seems to be what is in question above... Using cap space to sign UFA then signing your own player via Bird Rights too.

Yes, exactly as it is IRL. Teams use their cap space to sign players who were not previously on their team. Then wait and go over the cap with their Bird Rights if need be. Not a loophole, that's how it's meant to be.

What LoCo is talking about though is definitely a loophole.

DarthVegito wrote:

42PhD wrote:That's fine, but if that allows you to also use your Bird Rights later, that is a loophole. If that is a practical improbability, then maybe not, but that seems to be what is in question above... Using cap space to sign UFA then signing your own player via Bird Rights too.

Yes, exactly as it is IRL. Teams use their cap space to sign players who were not previously on their team. Then wait and go over the cap with their Bird Rights if need be. Not a loophole, that's how it's meant to be.

What LoCo is talking about though is definitely a loophole.

Sorry, that is not how current and recent NBA CBA's work. I'm not saying that is relevant to the issue here, but that is not how it works IRL.

42PhD wrote:

DarthVegito wrote:

42PhD wrote:That's fine, but if that allows you to also use your Bird Rights later, that is a loophole. If that is a practical improbability, then maybe not, but that seems to be what is in question above... Using cap space to sign UFA then signing your own player via Bird Rights too.

Yes, exactly as it is IRL. Teams use their cap space to sign players who were not previously on their team. Then wait and go over the cap with their Bird Rights if need be. Not a loophole, that's how it's meant to be.

What LoCo is talking about though is definitely a loophole.

Sorry, that is not how current and recent NBA CBA's work. I'm not saying that is relevant to the issue here, but that is not how it works IRL.

Oh ok. I know nothing then. Carry on.

I'm 100% on board with implementing this rule change immediately (since it impacts only 1 person this year, and that 1 person is the one who is proposing the change). For this, it will NOT be a vote, as it is an oversight made in the RFA rules and a clear loophole that can be exploited without any deterrent.

I need to look into the removal of the Bird Years process in the game (from a "can it actually be done in the game" functionality standpoint), but in the interim, stripping a team of the 5yr/12.5% added benefit (no extra leverage to separate you from the other maxes that may be offered) if they decline their RFA rights is a good, initial fix.

42PhD wrote:UFA's don't have a cap hold? If not, that sounds like the loophole, not this weirdo thing.

Negative on cap holds. Program runs on a simplified version of the cba (a la NBA 2k) and cap holds aren't a part of it.


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DarthVegito wrote:

42PhD wrote:

DarthVegito wrote: Yes, exactly as it is IRL. Teams use their cap space to sign players who were not previously on their team. Then wait and go over the cap with their Bird Rights if need be. Not a loophole, that's how it's meant to be.

What LoCo is talking about though is definitely a loophole.

Sorry, that is not how current and recent NBA CBA's work. I'm not saying that is relevant to the issue here, but that is not how it works IRL.

Oh ok. I know nothing then. Carry on.

Short messages due to meetings. Not snippy. I'll explain with a good example later.

IamQuailman wrote:I'm 100% on board with implementing this rule change immediately (since it impacts only 1 person this year, and that 1 person is the one who is proposing the change). For this, it will NOT be a vote, as it is an oversight made in the RFA rules and a clear loophole that can be exploited without any deterrent.

I need to look into the removal of the Bird Years process in the game (from a "can it actually be done in the game" functionality standpoint), but in the interim, stripping a team of the 5yr/12.5% added benefit (no extra leverage to separate you from the other maxes that may be offered) if they decline their RFA rights is a good, initial fix.

So Grizzlies can't give 5 years to Marion this offseason?


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He cannot

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Inner_GI wrote:

IamQuailman wrote:I'm 100% on board with implementing this rule change immediately (since it impacts only 1 person this year, and that 1 person is the one who is proposing the change). For this, it will NOT be a vote, as it is an oversight made in the RFA rules and a clear loophole that can be exploited without any deterrent.

I need to look into the removal of the Bird Years process in the game (from a "can it actually be done in the game" functionality standpoint), but in the interim, stripping a team of the 5yr/12.5% added benefit (no extra leverage to separate you from the other maxes that may be offered) if they decline their RFA rights is a good, initial fix.

So Grizzlies can't give 5 years to Marion this offseason?


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That's what I offered when I brought it up to Doug


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Short version is a guy with Bird Rights imposes a cap hold about equal to his previous seasons salary. So guys coming off small deals and signing big ones tend to wait to re sign because the team can use their cap space. Guys coming off big deals for smaller ones sign fast so the bigger hold falls off and the team can use the cap space. Big expiring re signing don't matter... the cap hold is about the same.

How does this affect me and Francis?

Conroy wrote:How does this affect me and Francis?

It doesn't. You accepted Francis's RFA rights. You can offer the full max that you didn't offer the first time around




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The rule should be , as current , is if you decline your player you lose bird rights as well as the supermax.

ballsohard wrote:The rule should be , as current , is if you decline your player you lose bird rights as well as the supermax.

No, that is NOT the current rule... and has not been for many seasons. Please re-read the RFA rules at viewtopic.php?f=31&t=95 for clarification on what the RFA rules are.

If you think it SHOULD be in the rules, you are welcome to suggest it, but as presently constituted, loss of Bird Rights is not one of the penalties for declining Restricted Free Agenct rights. RFA Rights and Bird Rights are - and should be - two separate things.

WigNosy wrote:

ballsohard wrote:The rule should be , as current , is if you decline your player you lose bird rights as well as the supermax.

No, that is NOT the current rule... and has not been for many seasons. Please re-read the RFA rules at viewtopic.php?f=31&t=95 for clarification on what, exactly, the RFA rules are.

then they were changed from the original rfa ruling and people were stupid for changing them.

ballsohard wrote:

WigNosy wrote:

ballsohard wrote:The rule should be , as current , is if you decline your player you lose bird rights as well as the supermax.

No, that is NOT the current rule... and has not been for many seasons. Please re-read the RFA rules at viewtopic.php?f=31&t=95 for clarification on what, exactly, the RFA rules are.

then they were changed from the original rfa ruling and people were stupid for changing them.

See: today

ballsohard's Original RFA Rules post on Proboards wrote: http://fbbsimleague.proboards.com/threa ... ree-agency

This year we have decided to implement RFA. Now what does this mean? What are the rules? This post is intended to describe all of that.

What does it mean:
What is RFA? RFA is a chance to keep your rookie deals and having the finals say on if you can keep them or let them go.

Who's at risk?
With RFA, you will never lose your star unless you're an idiot. Yes, I said it, IDIOT. It's the middle tier guys you have to worry about. We want to implement this in order to allow these middle tier guys to be attainable so we can have a more robust FA period. In previous years, you never really had a shot to make a big effect on your team. To quote our most experience GM Wignosey, "Player movement is the lifeblood of a league". We've heard you loud and clear. Now if you want a player, chances are you're going to have to pay. 

What are the Rules?

There are 3 periods to RFA. The Qualifying Offer Period, the Bidding Period and the Accepting Declining Period. 

1. Qualifying Offer Period

Tray will set up the list of all players eligible for Free Agents and let you decide if you accept the QO or not. There are two options. Accept or Decline the offer. In essence, do you want to exercise RFA rights on the player or not.

A.) If you Accept: This cap hold is placed on your team and subtracted from your open cap space.
B.) If you Decline: You open cap space is accurate but your player will be open to bid for all. (Pretty simple)

ballsohard wrote:then they were changed from the original rfa ruling and people were stupid for changing them.

Hmm... I must have missed where the original RFA ruling you mentioned indicated a loss of Bird Rights. Could you please point it out for me?

WigNosy wrote:

ballsohard's Original RFA Rules post on Proboards wrote: http://fbbsimleague.proboards.com/threa ... ree-agency

This year we have decided to implement RFA. Now what does this mean? What are the rules? This post is intended to describe all of that.

What does it mean:
What is RFA? RFA is a chance to keep your rookie deals and having the finals say on if you can keep them or let them go.

Who's at risk?
With RFA, you will never lose your star unless you're an idiot. Yes, I said it, IDIOT. It's the middle tier guys you have to worry about. We want to implement this in order to allow these middle tier guys to be attainable so we can have a more robust FA period. In previous years, you never really had a shot to make a big effect on your team. To quote our most experience GM Wignosey, "Player movement is the lifeblood of a league". We've heard you loud and clear. Now if you want a player, chances are you're going to have to pay. 

What are the Rules?

There are 3 periods to RFA. The Qualifying Offer Period, the Bidding Period and the Accepting Declining Period. 

1. Qualifying Offer Period

Tray will set up the list of all players eligible for Free Agents and let you decide if you accept the QO or not. There are two options. Accept or Decline the offer. In essence, do you want to exercise RFA rights on the player or not.

A.) If you Accept: This cap hold is placed on your team and subtracted from your open cap space.
B.) If you Decline: You open cap space is accurate but your player will be open to bid for all. (Pretty simple)

ballsohard wrote:then they were changed from the original rfa ruling and people were stupid for changing them.

Hmm... I must have missed where the original RFA ruling you mentioned indicated a loss of Bird Rights. Could you please point it out for me?

yes, when I join the league again and care

42PhD wrote:

DarthVegito wrote:

42PhD wrote: Sorry, that is not how current and recent NBA CBA's work. I'm not saying that is relevant to the issue here, but that is not how it works IRL.

Oh ok. I know nothing then. Carry on.

Short messages due to meetings. Not snippy. I'll explain with a good example later.

Not that it is relevant here, but here is some real life cap hold info related to free agents.

For every free agent that ended the prior season on a team, that team has their rights. Rights come in 3 kinds depending on recent consecutive seasons of service without changing teams as a free agent. Each kind gives different levels of deal size allowed to be signed pursuant to an exception that be used only to sign that particular player. Non-Bird is for one season (or part), Early Bird for two, Bird for more.

Each free agent who can be signed via that exception comes with a cap hold depending on the exception, prior salary, technical crap.

If you don't want the hold, you can waive the rights. You then lose the exception, and you can not offer the weightier contracts even if you have another mechanism to sign the player. If you have space and access to the Bird exception, that suffices.

A nice example of the use of cap holds is the Heat when they acquired James and Bosh. The Heat had one player under contract and a deal to dump his useless ass. They threatened free agent deals for James and Bosh but these threats turned into Sign and Trades. By managing their cap holds correctly, they stayed over the cap in acquiring James and Bosh, signed Wade (and more) since they kept his hold... and retained their MLE since they never went below the cap or used space. This allowed them to sign Mike Miller. Had they not had him, Battier, Allen and just 2 of them, they might not have their 2 titles.

Here, Wade and others were certainly UFA.